Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

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Re: Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

Postby Cal » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:21 am

ChiGGz wrote:IE a softer tip on a fast rod would have lower lure ratings (3/8-2oz) vs a fast rod with a stiff tip (5/8 - 2oz). Assuming all other things being equal.


If these respective specs came from the same manufacturer then one might have a softer tip than the other, and they still might, but the only way to know for sure is to compare them side by side.

But these are lure ratings not the same as the words Action, Soft Tip, or Taper.

This is why we take the time to fish everything before we write a product up - specs can be misleading.
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Re: Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

Postby IlliniDawg01 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:23 am

Here is a pretty good picture for visualizing the action.

Image

Normally a faster action rod will have a pretty soft tip, but since the term is used so broadly you never know.

Action and Taper are pretty much the same thing as others have said and measure where the blank flexes most for a given weight.

Power is how much weight the rod can move with a certain amount of flex.

DaveJ

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Re: Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

Postby Jason Penn » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:37 pm

ChiGGz wrote:
Cal wrote:
ChiGGz wrote:So then following all the great logic here, then a soft tip is better for cranks than a fast tip given the same action?


You're still mixing it up. A rod can have a fast tip that is soft or stiff. "Fast" is used to describe the action/taper.

You cant' tell if a rod has a soft tip or not based on the ratings. You have to feel it in person by holding the rod and bending the tip against the floor or ceiling.


I guess I'm drinking the manufacturers Kool-Aid then. With a soft/stiff tip suggesting how easy it is to load a lure on cast, I figure it would also be factored into the rod's lure rating.
IE a softer tip on a fast rod would have lower lure ratings (3/8-2oz) vs a fast rod with a stiff tip (5/8 - 2oz). Assuming all other things being equal.

But then, there's no governance on rod specs, so I guess they can put whatever they want to make a rod more marketable.

This thread has been really helpful though.


company's suggestions on rods can be a bit deceiving to say the least. i've got a daiwa ballistic 6'9 mh rod from a few years ago that says "worm/jig" on it, but it just wasn't very good at that for me. i was planning on returning the rod, but then thought "tie on a spinnerbait and see if it works for that". it's supposed to be mh power, but it's really closer to m. i would say it is a fast action blank, but it reacts more like a mod action with a fish on. the rod is actually a lot more versatile than i thought it would be. i can imagine it would work well for walkers & poppers, buzzbaits, and squarebills as well.

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Re: Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

Postby adam lancia » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:40 pm

ChiGGz wrote:I guess I'm drinking the manufacturers Kool-Aid then. With a soft/stiff tip suggesting how easy it is to load a lure on cast, I figure it would also be factored into the rod's lure rating.
IE a softer tip on a fast rod would have lower lure ratings (3/8-2oz) vs a fast rod with a stiff tip (5/8 - 2oz). Assuming all other things being equal.

But then, there's no governance on rod specs, so I guess they can put whatever they want to make a rod more marketable.

This thread has been really helpful though.


The lure ratings only tell half the story when it comes to the tip of a rod. You *can* cast a 1/4oz lure on a first generation Veritas 7'MHF but you need to really whip it to get the tip to load, whereas with a 7'MHF Kistler Helium, a simple roll cast loads the tip nicely to cast that same lure.

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Re: Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

Postby Randingo » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:33 am

IlliniDawg01 wrote:Here is a pretty good picture for visualizing the action.

Image

Normally a faster action rod will have a pretty soft tip, but since the term is used so broadly you never know.

Action and Taper are pretty much the same thing as others have said and measure where the blank flexes most for a given weight.

Power is how much weight the rod can move with a certain amount of flex.

DaveJ

So a chart like this one demonstrates how rods of different actions load under some degree of weight. But it doesn't tell you how much weight is used to deflect the rod to the extent shown, so it only tells you that the tip section is relatively softer than the power section of the blank and how far into the blank the tip section goes relative to how far up the blank the powerful section extends. So you could in theory have a mega-top type rod with a tip that will deflect under very little weight, an extra fast taper with an extremely soft tip, married to a blank that is otherwise an extra heavy powered meat stick. Your concern about the apparent bend of the St. Croix you saw in the picture is probably misplaced. There's no such thing as a rod that bends for a tiny percentage of the blank and then shuts off dead. It's likely the picture you saw was taken when the blank was mostly unloaded asa fish swam up or towards the boat. As to whether a soft tip and extra fast action is better for cranking, the answer is almost universally no. Heavy baits with trebles that are pulled through the water are generally better served by moderate to moderate fast actions, with tips stiff enough not to totally collapse when throwing an ounce plus bait. For many people, those moderate fast rods are ideal for pretty much any kind of treble hook lure, but others like fast to XF rods for baits that you manipulate a lot like topwaters and jerkbaits. They feel lighter and more responsive to the manipulations of the rod you make because only the tip is deflecting significantly when you twitch, as opposed to several feet of blank which will deflect more and make you adjust the way you move the rod. You can get used to either, but some people have a strong preference for one or the other.

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Re: Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

Postby poisonokie » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:20 am

It also depends on which direction the line is being pulled as to whether or not a certain rod resembles that chart. If you're holding the lure and pulling it back toward your waist it will flex much differently than it will when you're pulling against a snag 20 ft in front of you.
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Re: Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

Postby JigginOG » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:49 pm

My interpretation is,
Taper/ action: the point in a rod tip when it transitions into backbone. A percentage will often be used to describe a rod tip action when under load to where only the certain portion of the rod will bend.
10%tip 90% backbone = extra fast
20% tip 80% backbone = fast
30% tip 70% backbone = medium fast
40% tip 60% backbone = moderat/ slow

Soft tip:
People use that term to differentiate the tip with the rods power ratings. For instance a heavy powered fast action rod will have a stiffer tip than a medium powered fast action rod, even though they're both rated a fast. When you compare the two side by side, you can tell the med rod has a softer tip. But when under load, they both will have a that fast action taper as described above.
Say you tie on a 1oz lure to both rods. The med rods tip will bend because of its "softer tip" while the heavy rods tip will be straight because of its stiffer tip. Again, under heavy load they both will be a fast taper.

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Re: Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

Postby Randingo » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:54 am

Not to further confuse things, but why not... There are rods that are sort of difficult to categorize in this scheme. They have what might be called a progressive action. Popping rods often fit this description. Depending on the load, they look like extra fast rods but as the load increases, they behave more like a mod-fast rod. These rods are difficult to characterize and also difficult to assign a power to. Maybe one of our rod builders or people more experienced with rate of deflection can help explain this better. I only mention it because it's a really useful rod action for spinnerbaits, bladed jigs, and all kinds of moving baits, but it hasn't worked its way into the lineups of many rod manufacturers.
Last edited by Randingo on Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

Postby curls » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:52 am

http://tackletour.com/images17/chrtkist ... f2ms70.jpg

It may help to look at rod deflection charts to visualize this question/answer.
If you browse the various charts, you'll see some rods have very little deflection in the first (lower left) portion - a relatively flat/horizontal line - this indicates a stiffer tip (vs similar power and action rods).
You'll often see rods which have arcs (like the pic above) - indicating a 'less fast' action, or a smoother transition between tip and backbone. Others will have a flat(ish) lower left portion but then jump/arc upwards, indicating a stiffer tip relative to backbone.
Rods which are very much horizontal oriented are more "broomstick" whereas rods with a deflection line that is closer to 45* are more progressive and 'slow'.
You'll need to compare rods across multiple graphs, but it may give you a good idea of the difference between taper, tip, and action, (and power).

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Re: Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

Postby Hogsticker2 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:08 am

Randingo wrote:Not to further confuse things, but why not... There are rods that are sort of difficult to categorize in this scheme. They have what might be called a progressive action. Popping rods often fit this description. Depending on the load, they look like extra fast rods but as the load increases, they behave more like a mod-fast rod. These rods are difficult to characterize and also difficult too assign a power to. Maybe one of our rod builders or people more experienced with rate of deflection can help explain this better. I only mention it because it's a really useful rod action for spinnerbaits, bladed jigs, and all kinds of moving baits, but it hasn't worked its way into the lineups of many rod manufacturers.

Love popping blanks from the likes of Rainshadow and Mhx. Very fun sticks. A little less moderate than a typical moderate cranking blank, but with a faster tip section. The tips typically have a smaller diameter as well. Really nice progressive bend throughout the blank. Ratings can be deceptive for sure. Not a lot of reserve power as the blanks don't seem to have that shutoff point.

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Re: Action vs. Soft Tip vs. Taper

Postby djd » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:09 am

My $0.02...

A soft tip helps with the following: Throwing lighter lures and allowing a fish to take the lure deeper before the rod 'reacts' to the load.

Taper helps with: Casting larger lures (think A-Rig and larger swimbaits) by loading the rod correctly for a long and accurate cast and keeping fish 'stuck' once hooked.

djd


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