Product Insight on new Calcutta's

[Buck2thPerch]

If we kept all the features and brought the reel over at say, $50-60 more, would you all be happier and willing to pay almost $500 for the Calcutta?

Think about where you are asking that.

I think we all here on TT agrees with this sentiment. Many of us were willing to shell out $$$ for a 20% increase on Daiwa products so the same can be said about Shimano. However, Bantam1 does have a point. We here at TT are in the minority. The average fisherman Joe spends no more than $100 for a rod and a reel.

[Gabriel]

I can forgive the lack of side-plate access. I like the new look but something more unforgivable happened.

No 50 size reel for the new calcutta? No 100 for America? What are they thinking?

[WoodT]

I have said it before and I will say it again. The cost of the extra machine work and parts would have priced the reel higher. We are getting hammered on the exchange rates right now which is why everythng continues to go up and we lose features because of it. If we kept all the features and brought the reel over at say, $50-60 more, would you all be happier and willing to pay almost $500 for the Calcutta?

Dan...should say first I think you are great. It says a lot about you as a person (i am guessing Shimano doesn't appreciate it as much as they should) about your year over year ability to represent the brand and the consumers objectively and as transparently as you do.

I'd wonder if the BOM costs came out to an incremental 50-60 bucks, or would that be BOM plus target margin? I would guess it is somewhere between the two. But then I'd also wonder about all the other retooling decisions in the new process design. Didn't Shimano engineers figure out....independent of exchange rates....a way to make this stuff more cheaply over the years (man i hope so)? And was comparative pricing and profitability based on past success, using depreciated tooling assets, or direct and adjusted comparatives? Is that gross profitability by all channels...ie, accepting gray market BS that naturally occurs but also (IMO) something OEMs aggravate through really dumb channel practices which make me shake my head? Did folks anticipate the service and warranty precedent of making a general consumer crack open an entire reel to adjust brakes?

Moreover, If you asked the existing and potential Calcutta audience if they would rather change their basic understanding of the Calcutta value prop to save 50 bucks...or keep the same usability, but have that reel manufactured in a place with labor costs cheaper than Japan....would they have said "Shimano Japan, right or wrong?". And is the answer worth the reels Shimano won't sell?

And did anyone point out to the product strategists that your primary competitor is basically addressing the exchange rate issue by simply jacking up prices (admittedly to stupid levels that only erode channel margins faster....) with only marginal increases in truly innovative features? If not, point them to the new Steez. Which is only 50 bucks more than the old Steez, and only 100 bucks more than the same old Steez in 2011, etc (it is almost like Daiwa figured out that a specialized market has no issues paying an extra 50 for...the same product ).

Ultimately, Shimano changed a core usability component that differentiates it from the competition. Usability and engineering are where Shimano hits home runs, every time. I own Shimano stuff, I own Daiwa stuff....I appreciate both, but in terms of consistent and thoughtful build quality, there is no question for me. So it's bizarre when something like this gets put out to a fan base as loyal and knowledgeable as Calcutta fans are. Particularly when it's combined with innovative things like the chassis design, the drag dial, and (IMO) and a really brilliant, modern look.

There are so many questions I could ask as a lousy fisherman but extremely capable product and process design guy. These are all broad generalizations but mostly indicative of a general mystification I have about any OEM stepping back what I think is a basic customer "must have" ("i want to adjust brakes easily...even if I don't have too all that much") in a flagship product to enable a cheaper launch of a new version of potential customer "delighters" ("hey, that new drag star looks cool! And I love silver!).


I think you are great, as I said. I just am surprised by the design decisioning here. The sun will still keep coming up, though, and I will still buy Shimano reels.

Recognizing that it is easy for anonymous Internet hacks to beat down via rants like this, I will also shoot you my contact info. My point here isn't to beat up your employer and hopefully you understand that it isn't an attacking you, either. More focused here on Shimano prod dev and marketing strategy....speaking as someone who does those things, I can tell you for sure....never trust any of us. We all are a bunch of Rear echelon pogues.

[Austrian]

How often do you guys change your VBS settings?

[jeb]

How often do you guys change your VBS settings?

Quite often, on my Calcutta's and my low profile Shimano reels.

[WoodT]

How often do you guys change your VBS settings?

Quite often, on my Calcutta's and my low profile Shimano reels.

Not as much as i adjust Daiwa brakes, though probably not as much as i could to optimize some casting situations. Often with lighter,awkward stuff.

More often than I pull my spool for bearing maintenance, etc..

I like the ability to do all of these things without my toolkit and a workbench, regardless.

[Bantam1]

On average most anglers will use a reel for a specific technique. Me personally? I never change the setting once I find the best one for that reel and rod.

The frame strength issue. With the CTE reels, if it was dropped and landed on easy access side, the frame was done. You cannot close the side plate all of the way. This is part of the reason we eliminated this feature. Most customers did not like to hear that they needed a $100 frame and a $30 side plate. Yes they are strong when torqued, or under a load. But when dropped or bumped hard enough it can get tweaked. Now this is not something anyone anticipates, but we try to think of everything and test for several possibilities. Then we have the cost issue for the extra machine work. Japan dictates the cost for production, not us. We simply cannot say "No this is all we will pay". It doesn't work that way. We still purchase the products from Shimano Inc to sell in the US. I'm sure the competition operates the same way.

Costs are calculated based on exchange rates at the time the project is completed.

We did not offer the 50 or 100 simply due to poor sales on previous models. Most anglers going to that size reel will fish low profile.

I realize the TT crowd is different, trust me I recognize that. However we are building reels for everyone. Not just the elitist few that want every feature known to man, shallow spools, machined or carbon handles, clicking everything, 10+ bearings and blessed by Ito. This is why there are aftermarket parts and a "global economy" for those that want something more personal to fit their needs.

[WoodT]

Japan dictates the cost for production, not us. We simply cannot say "No this is all we will pay". It doesn't work that way. We still purchase the products from Shimano Inc to sell in the US. I'm sure the competition operates the same way.

There is not a strong incentive for either Daiwa or Shimano engineers based in Japan to talk about how flagship reels could be much cheaper if they were produced by Chinese or Malaysian engineers.

Also appears that market development funds work different in Japan based on the price of Calcutta lefties at Plat. Interestingly enough, something is allowing Plat to offer a 50-60 dollar discount to move product:

http://www.plat.co.jp/shop/catalog/defa ... cutta.html

This is why I do not like MAP, among other reasons. MAP makes workarounds happen, and OEMs lose visibility to true market pricing.

Anyway, I think the basic design question for me is why they'd be adjustable at all. Tell people that they do not even need to be concerned with it. To the point of making it "fixed adjustable." I still wonder about the servicing issues...most disclaimers in the reel package for any OEM are pretty clear that they don't want your average joe cracking open a reel. The hourly guy at Cabelas has to tell a customer something about adjustable brakes, should the customer point to the Shimano reel sitting next to the Calcutta. A customer may infer that Shimano is encouraging them to crack open a reel.

And at worst, I think the Calcutta party line gets too close to the "Daiwa T3 rule of diminishing customer credibility.". If the party line is that t-wing is totally righteous and empirically better, it does beg the question of why the new Steez does not have t-wing. Nor most other Daiwa reels. If the Calcutta doesn't really need adjustable braking, and if side plates get broken...all that stuff...are those going away in future Core, Antares, etc platforms? If they don't go away, are calcuttas simply engineered better than anything else? Put that claim on the box and raise the price.

The 100mg7 launched with (hopefully) a cheaper BOM than the 100MGFV but a higher price point. Ultimately, yeah...people wouldn't have blinked much at a 50 dollar price bump when a 600 dollar Steez recycle is sitting in the same display case.


You are a good dude, Bantam. I appreciate the dialogue in this thread and over PM. Yes, I want to try one. I am just surprised. But you are way cooler about this than the Daiwa and Abu reps that run their own support threads here at TT. Those guys are total losers.

I realize the TT crowd is different, trust me I recognize that. However we are building reels for everyone. Not just the elitist few that want every feature known to man, shallow spools, machined or carbon handles, clicking everything, 10+ bearings and blessed by Ito. This is why there are aftermarket parts and a "global economy" for those that want something more personal to fit their needs.

I don't want a t-wing line guide. But tell me more about this reel...you're saying it has all these things, and Ito took a can of pink spray paint to it? I'm IN.

[WoodT]

On average most anglers will use a reel for a specific technique. Me personally? I never change the setting once I find the best one for that reel and rod.

I will say I don't like this particular line of thought. The Calcutta is revered because it is bullet-proof and "second best at everything"....I would hate for the talking points to be the same with the rod proliferation. I don't want a "deep crankin," "jig/worm," "c-rig" etc reel specialization. A Calcutta is the utility fielder and benchmark for anybody wanting one reel for lots of things.

Japan dictates the cost for production, not us. We simply cannot say "No this is all we will pay". It doesn't work that way. We still purchase the products from Shimano Inc to sell in the US. I'm sure the competition operates the same way.

What happens if you tell them you aren't interested? I'm assuming they need you as much as Coca Cola needs their regional bottlers, for example. Just wondering.

Last idle thought...sorry, I get wound up on this stuff...if this is the same platform sold in Japan, aren't there a bunch of CQ50 loving, forged handle spinning, brake shaving Japanese anglers going completely ape on some poor Shimano rep in some Japanese web forum? You'd think they would hate this way more than us unrefined Americans.

[Shim_Dai_Ano_Wa]

After reading Cal's article on the Calcutta D and the Calcutta 12.


All I have to say is a Booooooooooooooooooooooooo on the new Calcutta D and on shimanos decision to not have the accessible brakes and spool with it tools.


As usually we are alway left behind in the market of tackle whores. And it's not because of the depreciation of the u.s dollar or at least that what I think.

And that my .02 rant for now until more reviews po up for the new calcutta D the calcutta TE still rules.

[GARRIGA]

I was stoked about getting the D but the more I learn the more I'm thinking I'll wait to see if a new TE comes out. I like the new changes on the B but not crazy about paying TE prices without TE gears. I can live without the side plate since the baits I'm going to throw may not be as affected but a dressed up B is not what I'm going to go bonkers over. Improve the TE and stop the watering down trend started with the Chronarch E. I may have no choice but buy a righty 300 TE or JDM equivelant.

[q1w2e3_89]

Maybe brake adjustment is not a big deal for the bass fishermen on TT, but the old Calcuttas and Conquests have been the go-to reel for heavy duty inshore fishing among my friends. Out there, brake adjustment is necessary because wind conditions can change quickly.

[jeb]

On average most anglers will use a reel for a specific technique. Me personally? I never change the setting once I find the best one for that reel and rod.

I have a few dedicated setups, too, like C-rig rods. But I also have several combos I expect to be versatile. The Calcutta has always been thought of as being a more versatile reel, from what I read. So saying it's now a niche reel now also cuts down on it's appeal.

The frame strength issue. With the CTE reels, if it was dropped and landed on easy access side, the frame was done. You cannot close the side plate all of the way. This is part of the reason we eliminated this feature. Most customers did not like to hear that they needed a $100 frame and a $30 side plate. Yes they are strong when torqued, or under a load. But when dropped or bumped hard enough it can get tweaked. Now this is not something anyone anticipates, but we try to think of everything and test for several possibilities.

That would make sense, if it were not for the fact that they offer the "weaker" design in Japan. Why is that not a concern in Japan?

[Bantam1]

The Calcutta is not a niche reel. I am just saying that most bass anglers keep something that is dedicated and do not play around with settings once they find what is right for them.

You cannot compare Japanese anglers to US anglers. First of all they take care of their reels much better than the average US angler. They also use the reels for different applications. They understand finesse. Most bass anglers in the US use 17-20# for everything. As I stated previously the 50 and 100 went away due to poor sales in those sizes. That alone should answer your question.

I'm not trying to change your opinions. I just wanted to give the answers as to why we did certain things. I think if you actually fish the reel you would understand what it is all about. It is made for power fishing. It has more power than our previous Calcutta models, and is very smooth.

Then we have Cal's article. Sorry dude but I have to voice my opinion on this one. He compared the 50 to the 100. The 100 is still a 100. The physcial size is smaller, but it is a 100 size reel. Expecting the 100 to palm like the 50 was not something you should have expected. The Calcutta D has a narrower, but slightly taller spool. I did not read anywhere that said the 200 was as small as the 100, so why would the 100 be as small as the 50? We did claim the overall size was smaller. I even posted percentages on the new product post for ICAST. Just curious why he expected that and used that to point out why he was not happy. I know we do not offer this size in the US, but just for my better understanding.

The gears are not loose on the Calcutta D when you remove the side plate. The side plate and set plate come off as an assembly just like they do on the 200B. We just eliminated the thumb screws that have a habit of loosening up over time. I will post pictures later for evidence if needed.

[Cal]

Then we have Cal's article. Sorry dude but I have to voice my opinion on this one. He compared the 50 to the 100. The 100 is still a 100.

No problem at all ... it may not have been published in writing, but I know that's the impression I was given at some point somewhere or I would not have brought it up.

And this is what the Calcutta B looks like inside... i'd say these gears are loose. There's a way to pull them out, yes, but those not familiar with taking reels apart will still be intimidated by the risk of having the springs and other loose parts fall out if the reel is not held properly.