(SUL) Super Ultra Light?

How small is your rod and how light is your line? It's not about the size of your tackle, but how you work it. Come share your Ultralight fishing success here!
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LowRange
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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by LowRange » Fri May 03, 2019 11:45 am

jvelth74 wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:27 am
Yesterday I put Quantum Enerpy PT Burner to SUL Kuying Teton, just because Quantum is most compact baitcaster that I currently have (It's really low profile reel vs. Daiwa's). Heck, that reel was heavy :-) It is 7.8 oz. My idea was to put my sv tw Zillion (with BFS spool) to SUL Kuying Teton for testing would BFS be for me. But now I'm thinking would that combo give any information. Or should I instantly buy ct Alphas (6.1 oz). Or is even Alphas way too heavy, would Aldebaran BFS (4.6 oz) be only solution... ct Steez I concider too expensive.
The Alphas CT spool looks too deep and the SV brake isn't the best for UL let alone SUL baits. You would want the Alphas Air Stream Custom for that. Don't worry about the weight of the reel. It is the spool weight that is important. There are some affordable BGS options from Abu too.

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by Craigthor » Fri May 03, 2019 3:12 pm

jvelth74 wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:27 am
Yesterday I put Quantum Enerpy PT Burner to SUL Kuying Teton, just because Quantum is most compact baitcaster that I currently have (It's really low profile reel vs. Daiwa's). Heck, that reel was heavy :-) It is 7.8 oz. My idea was to put my sv tw Zillion (with BFS spool) to SUL Kuying Teton for testing would BFS be for me. But now I'm thinking would that combo give any information. Or should I instantly buy ct Alphas (6.1 oz). Or is even Alphas way too heavy, would Aldebaran BFS (4.6 oz) be only solution... ct Steez I concider too expensive.
Abu Garcia Revo LTX-BF8 is only 4.7oz if you end up being interested in that route let me know. The LTX is the smallest BFS reel I’ve held.

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by jvelth74 » Sun May 05, 2019 4:00 am

I tested my new Teton SUL. That’s really enjoyable little rod!
Teton and Zillion.JPG
Teton and Zillion.JPG (79.21 KiB) Viewed 1529 times
In my test I firstly found that I didn’t have lighter lead weights than 5 g Churashka’s :-) Because lighter than that I have used rigid weight in hook in light bottom jigging and I didn’t take my jig box with me for this test. But luckily I did take with me some light lures which has been unused for years or 10 years ore more.
Light setup.JPG
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Testing conditions.JPG
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But weight test: I really enjoyed casting 5 g with Teton SUL with Zillion with Momo’s spool with 0.06 mm Spiderwire. 7 g Was also OK with same combination, but casts was not longer than with 5 g's. Maybe ~5 g’s is ideal for that setup. I also tried 10 g which still was castable, but it was clear that this is too much for that rod. Great! x.x g …. 5 g are great for Teton SUL and between 5 g … 10 g I have a lot of rods to change if more casting distance is needed.

I also tried Ray’s DIY for Zillion in this combination. It was clear that this spool with this line (0.12 mm Spiderwire) had too much inertia for that 5 g weight to start spool to run. So in my opinion Ray’s original DIY is not finesse capable. Ray’s new honeycomb might be different story. But it's true that those 0.12 mm Spiderwire weights couple of gram. Line could be lighter for BFS use. But I have that Momo's which works in BFS.
Scaling spools.JPG
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Changed back to Momo’s and testing some light lures. I found that light and small surface popper was nice to cast and nice to swim. To catch a fish was highly unlikely because it started to cold breeze and snowing and surface activity was about 0. Changed a little Rapala. I didn’t know how light it was but I found that was nearly not castable. If casted full speed and power that might start spool to rotate as it should. But not in full speed cast distances was under 10 m but still some how able to fish. I weighted this little Rapala. It was 2.2 g.
Scaling a little Rapala.JPG
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I tried bottom contact for that 5 g weight. In my opinion this rod transfers response very well! I guess this will be really enjoyable rod to fish perches in a summer!

There was a little stream (about 1 m wide) and there was trees growing all over. I also tried to fish there and yes, managed to cast there with this tiny rod.

Weight of Zillion was not issue. It’s not that heavy. Issue with Quantum weight was mainly balance. Quantum machinery is a lot of heavier than other end (and this reel is low but wide). But with Zillion I didn’t have issues with weight or balance during fishing. But Zillion is a little of too big / too high. And moreover to that my Zillion is right handed. And I found that with light setup I like to use some kind of palming grip, sure during in retrieve but during casting as well. And casting with right hand with some kind of palming grip and right hand reel…no no.

I also found that it was nice to cast from ‘knuckle side’ (I’m not sure is this correct word, propably not, but in Finnish we use same words than in Tennis ‘Avokämmen’ and ‘Rystypuoli’, and Rystypuoli = knuckles side). Really ease and accurate and nice to cast from ‘knuckle side’. I also tried some skipping(?) or pitching casts(?) and managed also very good with those. I hasn’t had this far baitcasting rod’s under 7’ that works in my hands.

No fish contacs but I'm pretty sure this rod would work well with fishes I will got with it!

But now I have to think which to purchase: Daiwa ct Alphas or Shimano BFS Aldebaran. Alphas is a little cheaper to delivery to Scandinavia but difference is not big. Shimano is way lighter and obviously remarkable smaller as well and more capable for BFS. With Shimano it’s not that much needed to purchase expensive aftermarket spool but anyway I consider that in BFS I must buy lightest one spool available. Currently there’s no aftermarket BFS spool for ct Alphas but it’s pretty sure that there will be. So fact’s in BFS are for Aldebaran. But I like Daiwa’s and Alphas is alumin reel with bronze gears and because of that I would use it also in sea for light fishing for Pike and Perch and Zander and Seatrout.
LowRange wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:45 am
The Alphas CT spool looks too deep and the SV brake isn't the best for UL let alone SUL baits. You would want the Alphas Air Stream Custom for that. Don't worry about the weight of the reel.
Yeh, there’s deep spool in ct Alphas. But I have heard that ct Steez casts well 2 g. And I don’t believe it’s only for TWS line guide. There could not be much difference if thin line is in use. Alphas AirStreamCustom I have thought much. Yeah, it is for lightweight use, but I’m not sure would I like it because I’m thinking would it be too much overbraked. And is there that much difference between AirStreamCustom lightweight castability vs. Momo’s spool. Or is Momo’s even better? Momo’s = lighter, not overbraked, but it’s 3 mm bigger in diameter => maybe a little more inertia than in AirStreamCustom. Because of that 30 mm ct Alphas attracts me a lot (and aftermarket spool to that when someone offers that). But for heavier use AirStreamCustom (and classical Alphas spool to it) would be nice. Or maybe I should just purchase left handed sv Zillion (or Steez A)…

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by Knotty » Sun May 05, 2019 9:31 am

jvelth74 wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:00 am

I also found that it was nice to cast from ‘knuckle side’ (I’m not sure is this correct word, propably not, but in Finnish we use same words than in Tennis ‘Avokämmen’ and ‘Rystypuoli’, and Rystypuoli = knuckles side). Really ease and accurate and nice to cast from ‘knuckle side’. I also tried some skipping(?) or pitching casts(?) and managed also very good with those. I hasn’t had this far baitcasting rod’s under 7’ that works in my hands.
I believe you’re referring to what we call “backhand”.

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by jvelth74 » Sun May 05, 2019 10:16 am

Knotty wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:31 am
I believe you’re referring to what we call “backhand”.
Thanks! Yes, backhand:
Backhand.JPG
Backhand.JPG (51.56 KiB) Viewed 1485 times
I'm not the man in the picture :-)

But yes, it's nice to cast backhand with short and light rod.

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by LowRange » Sun May 05, 2019 12:11 pm

You should have no problem casting 3 gram baits with the Ray's or Momo spool. If you are struggling to cast 5 grams then something is wrong with your reel or reel setup. You may want loosen the spool tension and turn up the brakes. The SUL also seems too light for 5 gram baits. The rod is only rated for .08 to 3 gram baits.

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by jvelth74 » Mon May 06, 2019 7:09 am

I did have only 5 g, 7 g and 10 g (and heavier than those) lead weights with me. I guess that I could cast 3 g lead decently. Because with lead weight it’s not important how smooth cast is. But it’s totally different story to cast Rapala Original, which is really light vs. it’s size and balance of it is poor. (Sinking versions 'Countdowns' are much better.) Because of that all Originals are poor to cast. And that smallest Original, which I used, might be the poorest. Crankbaits must be casted like that lure flies tail straight forward. With that Rapala Original which is 1” long and it weights 2.2 grams (I don’t know what is in ounces) it is really hard to set that tiny crankbait to fly tail forward in a power casting. Too hard for at least for me with one hand 5’ rod.

I wasn’t struggling with casting 5 grams. Rod worked really nice and distance was good, maybe 25 meters or so. (It’s not bad, it’s about 50% of that what I casted with same weight and reel and line but with St.Croix Avid Salmon & Steelhead AVC96MLF2, measured distance +50 m.) I really enjoyed casting 5 grams with Teton SUL. But Ray's original DIY spool weighting 13.1 grams (with 0.12 mm line) needed 7 grams of casting weight to start effortlessly. So this spool needs at least lighter line for being BFS capable. But I keep 0.12 mm lines in that spool because I have Momo’s for BFS which starts like a dream with 5 g.

Spool tension has been in ‘0’ for 30 years in all my baitcasting reels.

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by LowRange » Mon May 06, 2019 4:10 pm

jvelth74 wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 7:09 am
I did have only 5 g, 7 g and 10 g (and heavier than those) lead weights with me. I guess that I could cast 3 g lead decently. Because with lead weight it’s not important how smooth cast is. But it’s totally different story to cast Rapala Original, which is really light vs. it’s size and balance of it is poor. (Sinking versions 'Countdowns' are much better.) Because of that all Originals are poor to cast. And that smallest Original, which I used, might be the poorest. Crankbaits must be casted like that lure flies tail straight forward. With that Rapala Original which is 1” long and it weights 2.2 grams (I don’t know what is in ounces) it is really hard to set that tiny crankbait to fly tail forward in a power casting. Too hard for at least for me with one hand 5’ rod.

I wasn’t struggling with casting 5 grams. Rod worked really nice and distance was good, maybe 25 meters or so. (It’s not bad, it’s about 50% of that what I casted with same weight and reel and line but with St.Croix Avid Salmon & Steelhead AVC96MLF2, measured distance +50 m.) I really enjoyed casting 5 grams with Teton SUL. But Ray's original DIY spool weighting 13.1 grams (with 0.12 mm line) needed 7 grams of casting weight to start effortlessly. So this spool needs at least lighter line for being BFS capable. But I keep 0.12 mm lines in that spool because I have Momo’s for BFS which starts like a dream with 5 g.

Spool tension has been in ‘0’ for 30 years in all my baitcasting reels.
I have no problems casting 3 grams with a Ray's spool and a Kuying Teton 662L. If you are struggling with 5 grams then there is something wrong with your reel or reel setup. Also keep in mind that the SUL rod is only rated up to 3 grams.

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by DirtyD64 » Tue May 07, 2019 12:34 am

The new honey comb spool has been fine for me, using 8lb Sufix 832 (.007 inch, .18mm). I don't keep up with the gram weight, but a 1/16 jig head and Bobby Garland Baby Shad (small 2" plastic) shouldn't weigh much more than 3 grams, which is around 1/10 of an ounce I think...

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by jvelth74 » Tue May 07, 2019 6:18 am

LowRange: Setups are different. There’s nothing wrong in my Ray’s spool. Loaded with 0.12 mm line it just weights almost twice more than Momo’s loaded with 0.06 mm line and therefore inertia of Ray’s is twice than Momo’s or more. Difference is significant when trying spools one after another. Casting weight of 5 gram seems limit when Momo’s starts effortlessly but Ray’s has issues to start spool to rotate. I found issues with Momo’s to cast 2.2 g Rapala and because Ray’s has inertia twice than Momo’s I should have similar issues to cast 4.4 g (floating Original Rapala.) But regardless to that I know that I could cast with Rays 3 g or maybe lighter lead shot, at least by changing line to lighter or rod to longer and maybe stronger (=more speed to lure/weight). But it’s not needed to be tested because Ray’s is anyway heavier than Momo’s and even Momo’s is not that light / low inertia that I would like to be.

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by LowRange » Tue May 07, 2019 12:20 pm

You were having problems casting the Zillion SV TW with the stock spool correct? It wasn't casting far enough? And now you are saying you are having problems casting a 5 gram spool with a Ray's spool in the same reel? 5 grams is slightly lighter than 3/16 oz. If I threw a 5 gram spoon in any of my Rays spools I would quickly cast all the line off the spool. The line would come off the spool very freely and the inertia of the spool with a bearing and line at 13 grams is still very low.

This leads me to believe that there is either something wrong with the reel or how the reel is set up. You're not using too much spool tension on you? Try backing off on the spool tension and turning up the brakes. You're also casting baits that are almost double the upper rating of the rod. I'm sure this is not helping either.

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by poisonokie » Tue May 07, 2019 1:23 pm

The Alphas ASC is not overbraked. It has a fixed inductor and a linear braking profile, but the inductor is thin and not extended fully and the small diameter spool sits on fast bearings. Frankly, I doubt you could find a better reel for that rod regardless of technique.
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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by Dalleinf » Tue May 07, 2019 9:30 pm

poisonokie wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 1:23 pm
The Alphas ASC is not overbraked. It has a fixed inductor and a linear braking profile, but the inductor is thin and not extended fully and the small diameter spool sits on fast bearings. Frankly, I doubt you could find a better reel for that rod regardless of technique.

X2

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by ss30378 » Thu May 09, 2019 10:08 am

I have or have had all the Daiwa and Shimano reels in this discussion.

Out of the box the alphas asc is an excellent caster just as good if not slightly better than the aldebaran bfs stock for stock with lightweight lures. The bearing on the spool of the ASC is very heavy, skewing the spool weight but don't let it fool you it's an awesome bfs reel. The aldebaran is great in stock form as well but has the advantage of having aftermarket spools to get the ultimate casting performance. My only qualm with the superlight aftermarket spools are many have aluminum/titanium spool shafts. While they may be the ultimate in lightweight spools there is more feedback/vibration from them making the reel feel less smooth. I guess the saying "there is no free lunch" holds true.

Regardless the stock spools of the asc and aldebaran bfs have been able to cast down to 1g on my custom phenix trout casting rod with stock unflushed bearings.

Palming and fishability is personal preference but the aldebaran palms smaller than the ASC and is lighter overall. The ASC however is aluminum with brass gears and is very fluid. While heavier than the aldebaran its still only 5.9oz.

The alphas ct sv is a little bit different animal, while not a dedicated bfs reel its very capable of going down to 3g and even a bit less on the right rod. The 30mm spool has a different startup rate and brake curve than the larger SV spools. It both out pitched and out distanced the stock 33mm alphas sv105 spool and is an excellent choice for power bfs and general finesse presentations like weightless worms, 4" senkos and so on.

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Re: (SUL) Super Ultra Light?

Post by jvelth74 » Fri May 10, 2019 6:28 am

Thanks for very helpful information of reels!

OK: ASC is good enough for BFS without any improvements.

And OK: ct Alphas in nearly OK for BFS.

Now I have to think will there be available spacers for ASC and when. Because when 30 mm aftermarket BFS spool will be available, I want it. And for seawater use I must buy corrosion resistant bearings and old Pixy spool to ASC.

Or I have to think is ct Alphas good enough for BFS in standard and wait for will BFS spool be available and when. (Yeah, castability of 3 g’s is enough for the moment.)

Aldebaran BFS is probably too BFS for me. And I hate to spoil products and that might happen to Aldebaran in my use. And ct Steez is too expensive and not intended for salt water.

In salt water use (Light seatrout, Zander, Perch and Pike fishing) I consider ct Alphas should work very good. Light lures for this kind of fishing can be tricky to cast but casting distances are not so important. I guess that for this kind of fishing ct Alphas spool is better than old Pixy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LowRange wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 12:20 pm
You were having problems casting the Zillion SV TW with the stock spool correct? It wasn't casting far enough?
Yeah. OG HLC Zillion casted 138 m (which is amazingly good in my opinion) and Steez 103 spool with HLC spring casted 132 m (which is in my opinion even better than OG HLC Zillion, because this spool is very stressfree and versatile in comparison to OG HLC Zillion). In comparison to these distances sv Zillion has serious issues in distance. And for example ct Type-r Tatula is much better in distance than sv Zillion despite of fact that ct Type-r is slightly overbraked for seatrout fishing in my opinion. I don’t how relevant is this kind of comparison but the fact is that I haven’t liked sv style brakes. Ct 70 size might be exception. I would like to try it at least.

LowRange wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 12:20 pm
And now you are saying you are having problems casting a 5 gram spool with a Ray's spool in the same reel? 5 grams is slightly lighter than 3/16 oz.
‘Problems’ might not be correct word in this case. But I clearly noticed that this spool weighting 13 g (with line) had much more inertia than Momo's weighting 7.5 g (with line), which is not a huge surpice. But it was indicated by that starting of Ray’s original DIY was not effortless like Momo's with 5 g casting weight. I know that at least by changing line and maybe rod it is castable for Ray's original DIY's with much lighter lures than 5 g. But MOMO’s is way better in light use and because of that I use that. Ray’s spool would be perfect for 7.5 g and 10 g weights but it don’t have enough line capacity (of 0.12 mm Spiderwire). Maybe 0.08 mm or 0.10 mm would be perfect line for that kind of use but I don’t like that spool that much and I don’t have tried. Besides with 10 g lures Steez 103 or Tatula ct Type-r start to work well.

LowRange wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 12:20 pm
You're not using too much spool tension on you?
Spool tension has been always as free as possible in my reels. I use magnetic or centrifugal brake and my thumb. Only exception is casting of 10 oz Swimbaits with 13 Fishing Concept A3, because I’m not strong enough to cast those needed speed that would make centrifugal brake to work correctly. And with this setup I’m that lazy that I don’t like to use thumb for all the way of cast.

LowRange wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 12:20 pm
You're also casting baits that are almost double the upper rating of the rod.
Teton SUL action is nice with casting 5 grams. 7 Grams is still castable but casts are not longer than with 5 grams. 10 Grams is still castable, but it’s clear that this is over to this rod. ~5 grams (or maybe 4) seems optimum in distance with 34 mm spools. With smaller and lighter spool optimum might be lower.

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