Ultralight Gear Ratio

[DirtyD64]

I have always said once I get my college done and really save up, I want to buy a top of the line ultralight reel. I will match it to the best rod for the job, probably a 5'6"-6'something rod.

The main issue I have is why are all ultralight spinning reels such slow ratios? The Daiwa Exist and Certate are like 4.8s and even the Stella is only a 5.1. I think the IPT matches, under like 24.

Is there a reason I am missing out on that manufacturers have done this or what is the deal? Would I not be better off just waiting for a new Sustain 1000 to come out... I almost guarantee the 1000 size for it will be a 6.0 or close to it gear ratio.

[CM_Stewart]

Have you considered a Shimano Cardiff CI4+ C2000HGS? It has a 6.0 gear ratio.

[Brad in Texas]

One reason is likely that spinning reels are fished differently.

We hook a fish and let it run a bit, then reel in the slack and take up whatever else the fish allows until the drag deploys, then back away from reeling, let the fish tire out a bit . . . just working it with the rod, then reel in again. And, we repeat all the way in. Our rods go up and down, up and down.

This contrasts a lot to the casting reels with high ratios where they often almost ski the fish back to the boat. Once they yank on a fish to set the hook, the rod tip stays high until the fish is up next to the boat.

But, there is no reason I can think of that a spinning reel might not have its drag set very high, then bring the fish in at a faster rate. It is just that so often we are using finesse tackle and techniques. I am not certain about down in the ultra-light category of spinning reels, but I have heard one or two of the big manufacturers are making higher ratio reels now.

Brad

[DirtyD64]

One reason is likely that spinning reels are fished differently.

We hook a fish and let it run a bit, then reel in the slack and take up whatever else the fish allows until the drag deploys, then back away from reeling, let the fish tire out a bit . . . just working it with the rod, then reel in again. And, we repeat all the way in. Our rods go up and down, up and down.

This contrasts a lot to the casting reels with high ratios where they often almost ski the fish back to the boat. Once they yank on a fish to set the hook, the rod tip stays high until the fish is up next to the boat.

But, there is no reason I can think of that a spinning reel might not have its drag set very high, then bring the fish in at a faster rate. It is just that so often we are using finesse tackle and techniques. I am not certain about down in the ultra-light category of spinning reels, but I have heard one or two of the big manufacturers are making higher ratio reels now.

Brad

This is what I wondered, I use all high speed spinning reels for light duty. I just leave the drag very loose for panfish. I fish 8lb PowerPro on 2500 size reels and have no issues. I just couldn't imagine going to a 4.8 with the same line, close to the same rod, and just a slightly smaller reel. Will check out that Shimano Cardiff. I didn't realize there was a Cardiff spinning model.

[Bronzeye]

Bluegills, crappies, and perch all prefer slow retrieves, which are easier to do with a low-ratio reel. Lots of UL reel users are targeting panfish.

If one plans to target stream trout, a small-spool reel with a low gear ratio is a bad combination. Often the only way to approach the fish without being seen is from downstream. I want to be able to retrieve at least 26 IPT, preferably more, in such a situation in order to keep the lure moving faster than the current pushing it toward me when I cast upstream.

Also, the angler who backreels hooked fish when they accelerate away from him is better off with a reel that releases a lot of line with each handle turn.

[Smead]

A lot is use driven: lure/situation/species specific.

One rule of thumb seems to that a high gear ratio is better for surface lures which you want to move quickly, also in situations if taking up line very quickly is important while playing a fish.

Ratios and IPT: 4.8:1 = 24", 5.6:1 = 25" and 6:1 = 30"

JDM reels have more ratio/spool size offerings than USDM reels. I've read that JDM reels and rods are very use specific...thus that Certate 1003 with 4.8:1 ratio. That has a shallow spool and has a specific purpose in Japan, but in the USDM your Certate reel sizes and gear ratios are very limited.

Here's the Certate page on Daiwa's JDM website site...scroll down and you'll see that there are 16 reels with differing sizes/ratios/spool sizes offered.

http://www.daiwa.com/jp/fishing/item/re ... index.html

If you want to stick to USDM Shimano; the current Stradic and the recently added Ultegra 1000 sized reels do have 6:1 ratios now.

[DirtyD64]

A lot is use driven: lure/situation/species specific.

One rule of thumb seems to that a high gear ratio is better for surface lures which you want to move quickly, also in situations if taking up line very quickly is important while playing a fish.

Ratios and IPT: 4.8:1 = 24", 5.6:1 = 25" and 6:1 = 30"

JDM reels have more ratio/spool size offerings than USDM reels. I've read that JDM reels and rods are very use specific...thus that Certate 1003 with 4.8:1 ratio. That has a shallow spool and has a specific purpose in Japan, but in the USDM your Certate reel sizes and gear ratios are very limited.

Here's the Certate page on Daiwa's JDM website site...scroll down and you'll see that there are 16 reels with differing sizes/ratios/spool sizes offered.

http://www.daiwa.com/jp/fishing/item/re ... index.html

If you want to stick to USDM Shimano; the current Stradic and the recently added Ultegra 1000 sized reels do have 6:1 ratios now.

This was a good read and interesting page. I think I would try to find one of the 2000HG models, seems to be perfect. One more question though... Is it impossible to just use a 2500 size or 3000 size with UL line? Does the bigger arbor or spool size help line twist and casting? Or does it start to become too large for guides on small UL rods and balance/fit feel become an issue?

[Smead]

With USDM, Daiwa 1500 and 2000 sized reels are identical to each other except for the spool size and capacities. Going up to 2500 size, the housing is the same size as the 1500/2000 reels, but the rotor is larger and takes a larger matching spool.

I would expect that JDM goes the same route; given that, you most likely would either want the 2004CH with it's shallow spool holding 100m of #4 and a ratio of 5.6:1 or the 2506H meant to hold 100m of #6 line...it should hold around 150m of #4...with the high gear ratio of 6:1. Otherwise, you would have to use a lot of backing line with a standard 2500 spool.

I have a St Croix Avid UL rod that Daiwa reels are too big on, it's only 5' long, wispy and has a short handle...Daiwa reels work fine on all my other UL rods. The larger 2500 rotor might make the reel seem pretty big on any UL rod though however. Coil size between the 2000 size spool and a 2500 would not be all that much of a difference, IMO.

You could see how this would work with your rod before buying by taking it to a store and trying it with USDM reels. The USDM 2000 and 2500 reels would be the same size as the JDM reels, they just have the non JDM deep spools.

For me, the 2004 size seems good enough...you can easily use #2 line on it as well. Much less expensive models than the Certate have all these reel sizes too.

[PancakeFace22]

Another reel to consider is the Shimano Vanquish. It is available in a pretty wide variety of size and ratio combinations in the smaller sizes. I am personally waiting on a C2500XGS to come in, and I'm strongly considering getting a C2000HGS as well.

I prefer faster ratios for most of my fishing. It's especially nice for fishing with floats, because it allows me to quickly take the slack out of the line caused by the float.

I have an easier time adapting to reeling slower with a high gear ratio than reeling faster with a slow gear ratio, so I tend to buy faster reels in general.

[Brad in Texas]

A lot is use driven: lure/situation/species specific.

One rule of thumb seems to that a high gear ratio is better for surface lures which you want to move quickly, also in situations if taking up line very quickly is important while playing a fish.

Ratios and IPT: 4.8:1 = 24", 5.6:1 = 25" and 6:1 = 30"

JDM reels have more ratio/spool size offerings than USDM reels. I've read that JDM reels and rods are very use specific...thus that Certate 1003 with 4.8:1 ratio. That has a shallow spool and has a specific purpose in Japan, but in the USDM your Certate reel sizes and gear ratios are very limited.

Here's the Certate page on Daiwa's JDM website site...scroll down and you'll see that there are 16 reels with differing sizes/ratios/spool sizes offered.

http://www.daiwa.com/jp/fishing/item/re ... index.html

If you want to stick to USDM Shimano; the current Stradic and the recently added Ultegra 1000 sized reels do have 6:1 ratios now.

Those numbers sound correct but only so for a particular circumference reel spool, of course. And, the spool size then has an added layer, often only 1/8th of an inch to further increase its diameter/circumference.

I wrote a post for another fishing forum where I sort of reverse-engineered the formula to know how much line a spool could hold, then a second post showing the effects of line take up per turn from a long cast (line out) to just as the line is all reeled in. I suppose one of the fascinating discoveries for me was the math as I applied it to 2 lbs. Sufix Nanobraid and its claim of being .001" in diameter. It takes one heck of a lot of line at that size to spool up any depth on a reel!

Finally, someone above asked about casting and reel size. Generally speaking, a larger spool means for each wave of line being pulled off, more line is going out so . . . longer casts. And, I can't think of a single disadvantage a 4000 series spinning reel has casting off tiny lines compared to a 1000. One difference? Weight. You'd have a lousy balance mounting a 4000 series on a 5 foot ultra-light. Brad

[Smead]

Well, the ratio is set by the gearing...how many inches of line that moves per a single crank of the handle remains constant.

How much of the spool each crank fills will vary with spool diameter; each crank should fill somewhat less of the spool as the diameter gets increasingly larger due to the added line.

You really don't have to fill a spool with small diameter line; you can use larger diameter line as backing and top it off with small diameter line.

So the higher ratio will appeal to those wishing a faster retrieve.

Considering spool coil size effects on casting, there are some variables. I would expect coil size to have less an effect if using braid with memory not mattering as it does when using mono. Newer mono lines are also better regarding memory too.

Then there's the concept of properly matching rod and reel regarding distance from spool to stripper guide and the stripper guide diameter, though with store bought rather than custom built you get as close as you can to the ideal.

Then there is the thought that much of this is splitting hairs. I've never bothered to measure coil size from full spools of differing reel sizes, I imagine that it isn't all that much in many cases.

I do prefer wider, shallower spools for UL, regarding casting light lures.

[Brad in Texas]

Well, the ratio is set by the gearing...how many inches of line that moves per a single crank of the handle remains constant.

I "think" we agree here. It really isn't inches of line that move but the number of degrees the spool spins per crank that is constant. If you have a reel where spools can be swapped, putting on a larger spool will cause a larger pick up of line per crank.

How much of the spool each crank fills will vary with spool diameter; each crank should fill somewhat less of the spool as the diameter gets increasingly larger due to the added line.

This relates back to the first. As you reel in line, the added line increases the diameter and you actually pick up more and more line. So, the net effect is that after a long cast, as the line is reeled up, the lure accelerates more and more as it approaches us.

You really don't have to fill a spool with small diameter line; you can use larger diameter line as backing and top it off with small diameter line.

Yes, I totally agree. Good luck getting .001" Sufix Nanobraid to fill a spool. It'd literally take miles of it.

So the higher ratio will appeal to those wishing a faster retrieve.

Yes.

Considering spool coil size effects on casting, there are some variables. I would expect coil size to have less an effect if using braid with memory not mattering as it does when using mono. Newer mono lines are also better regarding memory too.

I agree. Braid is limp and doesn't "jump off" the spool the way lines with a little bounce do.

Then there's the concept of properly matching rod and reel regarding distance from spool to stripper guide and the stripper guide diameter, though with store bought rather than custom built you get as close as you can to the ideal.

That's the issue, I think, that there is no disadvantage, not necessarily, casting tiny lines from 4000 reels. It just comes off in larger coils for longer casts. The "disadvantage" is more related to putting a bigger and heavier reel on an ultra-light rod.

Then there is the thought that much of this is splitting hairs. I've never bothered to measure coil size from full spools of differing reel sizes, I imagine that it isn't all that much in many cases.

I haven't measured them; don't need to as they are going to be proportional to the circumference of the spool they are flying off of.

I do prefer wider, shallower spools for UL, regarding casting light lures.

I'd love to see a really wide and really shallow spool. For most applications with ultra-light gear, why we'd need to spool up even 50 yards of line is beyond me. Heck, maybe a spool for much less than that would be best. One well-known pro bass angler gives a tip for those who skip baitcasters under docks. He says to be sure and spool on a whole lot less line, that the extra line on a casting reel contributes to line management issues. Makes sense!

Brad