Magforce-Z induction activation revolutions?

[LowRange]

^ That prototype(?) had much friction in inductor movement and move was edgy..

I think in Magforce-V weights are at least in bigger angle than Magforce-Z and therefore Magforce-V starts to move earlier than Magforce-Z.

I was wondering this myself. The range of motion of the Magforce V blocks seem larger than Magforce Z as well. I wonder if the "prototype" pixy spool is actually just a mistranslation of a prototyping process of a Pixy spool where the guy is trying to figure out the activation speeds of the spool. There is a laser pointed at a reflective tape on the spool. I'm guessing this is to monitor spool RPM. The jerky motion is a little concerning. I wonder if the spool and brake blocks could use some lubrication as part of a maintenance process. In the video the inductor dosen't want to extend until it reaches really high speed but seems to free up and move in and at easily at lower speeds.

Maybe that is becuae I refuse to believe that is a Daiwa lab and they just stick spools on a dremel.

[jvelth74]

Daiwa Lab must have better equipment for inductor testing than Dremel..

And If Daiwa couldn't make inductor movement better than in that video, I think they didn't have published it. Inductor move like this makes no sense at all. In some reels it's more than 50% difference in brake power inductor out / in. Suddenly 50% change in braking power during cast -

Inductor move to in must be smooth. Like it was in video I posted formerly.

[Carlos Carrapiço]

On Magforce Z and V the activation is not purely centrifugal. I did see a video a while back of a guy that had put Daiwa spools onto dremel and it took ungodly speeds to get the inductor to extend.

It is purely centrifugal.

[IlliniDawg01]

I imagine that Daiwa has very specific RPM graphs that show the inductor extension as speed increases. I would love to have access to those. I wonder how much the slope changes between Mag V, Z, and SV? I expect the spring strength would both change when the extension started and how big the range in RPM between no and full extension.

[jvelth74]

I imagine that Daiwa has very specific RPM graphs that show the inductor extension as speed increases. I would love to have access to those. I wonder how much the slope changes between Mag V, Z, and SV? I expect the spring strength would both change when the extension started and how big the range in RPM between no and full extension.

Absolutely that! In my opinion brainstorming in Daiwa has gone something like this:
- We can adjust magnetic brake, and that's great, but could we do it better, something like classical brakes
- Do you mean centrifugal brake?
- Yeah, it's good that it adjusts itself
- yes, centrifugal brake braking force is related to friction of centrifugal weights and it's related to V^2, which has been found good for casting
- Yes, but linear magnetic brake is related to V^1, and that's not bad either
- But if we could make magnetic brake finer?
- You mean related more than V^1?
- Yeah, could we make its somehow more similar like centrifugal brake?
- Hmmmmm ... Could we adjust magnetic brake by centrifugal force...?

And then they have brainstormed geometry of Magforce-Z and they might have measured speeds of standard casts and decided suitable speed for inductor to start to extend and suitable speed inductor to reach it's maximium.

Yeah, those RPM graphs would be really nice to see. Sad that Daiwa hasn't used those for marketing ... Ovious that's some kind of product secret. Despite of that anybody can measure those if have good lathe machine to use. And despite of that moving inductor is such fine component, that even Daiwa sometimes has issues with it, so they don't need toe be too worried about chinese copies...

Spring strenth extension start and end ... Yes, changing spring changes also spring preload. And there's different travels of different spools / inductors, and therefore spring change to similar doen't necessarily make two different spools / inductors to similar.

I have been thinking that formerly posted Pixy typ-r+ (prototype) video, it migh have sv brakes spring because inductor moved in very slow revolutions and it had trouble to retract, small amount of friction was almost too much for it. Two alternatives: friction was very big or spring was very soft. And sv spring is soft. (All Daiwa springs fit's to any Daiwa spool with moving inductor.)

Inductor extend: Only Magforce-V, -Z and -HLC extends by certain spool speed. Sv brake extends by acceleration (and by moment of inertia).

[LowRange]

The Pixy video seems really consistent with what I see and hear from my Pixies. Its the 1st video that shows the inductor briefly extend at 7000 rpm that seems off. That is how I imagine my HLC spool to behave. No breaking unless you casting it hard and get some serious RPM out of it.

Is that a regular TD Zillion spool in the 1st video? I don't have one for reference. All I have for that platform is an HLC and IP68 stock spool. Are the TD Zillion spools known for being distance casters?

[jvelth74]

I have following Mag-Z's:

- 2 x Steez 103 r+ (one is with HLC spring, one is with standard spring)
- 34 mm I'ze HLC spool (standard I'ze HLC spring is changed to stiffer HLC spring)
- Original HLC Zillion
- Z2020 with original spool and with RCS 2014 SPOOL shallow spool (these were strong springs as standard)

I absolutely love Original HLC Zillion because of that how free it allows me to cast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA5bRF_K0Oo

It's a joy to try to catch seatrout with it by casting a fly with floating bombarda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd_JV4tzBx0

But I absolutely hate Original Zillion when I try to cast standard lure to headwind with it.

OG HLC Zillion just needs lure speed to brake work. It would really be interesting to know what revolutions is really needed to get inductor to move and inductor to max for this reel. Both are aprox 2x what it does take with standard Magforce-Z, which revolutions would also be good info.

34 mm I'ze HLC spool and Steez 103 r+ with HLC spring are my most used spools for my sv tw Zillion. I have been only once missing spool with std. spring (light lure, which had drag, headwind, and not room for proper cast). But maybe standard springs are better for standard fishing even in 34 mm class. Despite of that then spool is really restricted when trying cast far.

But that OG HLC is really beast. Z2020 is much much much easier even in 'Max distance' 3D position. It still has braking power when inductor is in. In OG HLC braking power is really slim if inductor does not extend.

Hah, just looked 08 TD Zillion std. spool:

Vs. HLC Spool:

Seems like the is a lot difference in inductor base postion, which explains why there's parctically no brake in OG HLC when inductor is in...

[jvelth74]

Please note that if you think try Dremel to play with spool, there is risk to damage spool, at least if spool is full of line. I have read that a person has damaged Tatula's spool (full of line). I don't know what there exactly has happened, but that person obvious had tried to prove pulling forces between rotating inductor and magnets (paramagnetism):


At least my Dremel is such unbalanced that I don't test my spools with it.

And still I don't know is there or is there not axial pulling forces.

[jvelth74]

I made some rough measurements of inductor In / Out / travel. I think this might help to proceed to discuss?

This is my approximations which I think is 'correct'.

Mag-Z dimensioning.JPG (25.18 KiB) Viewed 6900 times

Equipment that I used.

Measuring equipments.JPG (48.98 KiB) Viewed 6900 times

This is raw data directly from measuring.

Raw data.JPG (33.03 KiB) Viewed 6900 times

Equipment was spools, reels, 18 x 1,5 mm washer. Measurements absolutely is not precise. But I have attached raw data and also table of dimensions which I suppose to be more correct. Spool of Tatula ct-type-r and OG HLC Zillion was such full that I couldn't take spool of fro reel which made measuring more challenging.

But it seems correct that I have earlier thought that travel of I'ze HLC is smaller than others and travel of OG HLC Zillion is larger than others.

And if correct OG HLC Zillion OUT position is slightly more OUT than others. It's also possible that it is actually same as others '1,5 mm'.

IN position in HLC Zillion it's much more 'In' than others and travel of OG HLC Zillion is bigger than others, and that is also clear when casting with it.

In RCS2020, RCS2014, Steez 103 r+ and Tatula ct type-r I think inductor positions are similar.

In I'ze HLC seem that IN position is slightly less than RCS2020 group and also movement is slightly less (Out position is similar). I'm not sure of my feel of spool, but yes, It might also feel like inductor movement has less effect.

I Tatula 200HD is fixed inductor, which is always between moving inductors.

[jvelth74]

I found this article of magnetic brakes:
http://mafija.fmf.uni-lj.si/seminar/fil ... GNETIC.pdf
Probably it clears everything, if reader understands The article Sorry, I didn't.

But I pointed this:

Maglev.JPG (23.93 KiB) Viewed 6569 times

Maglev: I'm really not sure how this translates to magforce, but just thinking coordinates...

'Propulsion' is in Magforce same as brake. And Leaviation does nothing in Magforce (it just tries to stretch inductor cup). 'Guidance' has effect in axial direction. This 'Guidance' tries to pull inductor cup in the axis of magnetic ring? Pulling force in Magforce Z, V and sv?

[aavery2]

This thread has been dead for a short time and I wanted to add what I believe to be information that may help reach a moderate level of understanding of how Lentz's Law and magnetism play together to provide brakeing in the SV, Z, V equipt reels.

First thing I want to say is that in my understanding of Daiwa braking systems, magnetism has no part in inductor extension, the inductor is aluminum and non ferous as all the other parts that make up the Mag Brake assembly, there is nothing ferous that can be attracted to one another like a magnet to a piece of steel. Take a magnet and try to pull the inductor cup in and out, it just wont happen.

The indutor cup is extended by the use of centrifugal force, and further adjustment to it's extension and retraction is adjust by spring strength. There is no magnetic force trying to pull the inductor into the adjustable magnetic field - please keep this point clear while reading my thoughts.

Magnets -


Please notice the field that eminate from the North pole of the magnet and circle to the South pole of the magnet this is your magnetic field that is produced by the stationary magnets in the palm plate, the rotation of the field is important to keep in mind.

This is where the fun happens, when you introduce an spinning inductor into a magnetic field something called Lentz's Law occurs. The spinning alumium inductor in the feild of the magnets creates what is referred to as Counter EMF, which is simply a feild much like the magnetic field except with one huge difference, the field rotation is counter to that of magnetism, this is where your braking comes from, the two fields are trying to rotate against one another. The faster the spool spins the further the inductor extends into the magnets increasing the Counter EMF.

Counter EMF /Lentz's Law - One of the cool things is that the strength of the counter EMF generated by the inductor extended into the magnets is proportional to the speed of the spinning inductor and is adjustable by changing the the strength of the magnetic field or/and by the inductor moving out of the magnetic field. It is further tunable by the strength of the springs used to retract the inductor , the stiffer the springs the faster the spool must spin before it can overcome the spring pressure and the inductor is extended into the magnetic field.

It is a advanced form of braking for a fishing reel and really speaks to the engineering at Daiwa.


Disclaimer - I do not know 100% that what I have stated is fact, I have studied this for some time and read everything that I could find available that I felt would aid in my understanding of this braking system. It would be great if someone could update, correct or add to what I have written.

[LowRange]

This thread has been dead for a short time and I wanted to add what I believe to be information that may help reach a moderate level of understanding of how Lentz's Law and magnetism play together to provide brakeing in the SV, Z, V equipt reels.

First thing I want to say is that in my understanding of Daiwa braking systems, magnetism has no part in inductor extension, the inductor is aluminum and non ferous as all the other parts that make up the Mag Brake assembly, there is nothing ferous that can be attracted to one another like a magnet to a piece of steel. Take a magnet and try to pull the inductor cup in and out, it just wont happen.

The indutor cup is extended by the use of centrifugal force, and further adjustment to it's extension and retraction is adjust by spring strength. There is no magnetic force trying to pull the inductor into the adjustable magnetic field - please keep this point clear while reading my thoughts.

Magnets -


Please notice the field that eminate from the North pole of the magnet and circle to the South pole of the magnet this is your magnetic field that is produced by the stationary magnets in the palm plate, the rotation of the field is important to keep in mind.

This is where the fun happens, when you introduce an spinning inductor into a magnetic field something called Lentz's Law occurs. The spinning alumium inductor in the feild of the magnets creates what is referred to as Counter EMF, which is simply a feild much like the magnetic field except with one huge difference, the field rotation is counter to that of magnetism, this is where your braking comes from, the two fields are trying to rotate against one another. The faster the spool spins the further the inductor extends into the magnets increasing the Counter EMF.

Counter EMF /Lentz's Law - One of the cool things is that the strength of the counter EMF generated by the inductor extended into the magnets is proportional to the speed of the spinning inductor and is adjustable by changing the the strength of the magnetic field or/and by the inductor moving out of the magnetic field. It is further tunable by the strength of the springs used to retract the inductor , the stiffer the springs the faster the spool must spin before it can overcome the spring pressure and the inductor is extended into the magnetic field.

It is a advanced form of braking for a fishing reel and really speaks to the engineering at Daiwa.


Disclaimer - I do not know 100% that what I have stated is fact, I have studied this for some time and read everything that I could find available that I felt would aid in my understanding of this braking system. It would be great if someone could update, correct or add to what I have written.

Not true with Air Brake but you are correct with V and Z bending centrifugally driven. The intensity of the magnetic field determines how the the inductor extends with Air Brake. Simply flick an SV spool at high mag dial and you can hear the inductor extend and seat and at low mag dial this does not occur. Same with the Air Brake kock off Ray's spools. With those you can actually see the inductor extend and seat through the spool porting on the spool without line on the spool..

[LowRange]

Also with air brake it is not at the inductor is attracted to the magnets but that the force acting upon the inductor makes the two ramps slide away from each other and one ramp is free to move while the other is fixed in place. This causes the inductor to extend.

[aavery2]

Not true with Air Brake but you are correct with V and Z bending centrifugally driven. The intensity of the magnetic field determines how the the inductor extends with Air Brake. Simply flick an SV spool at high mag dial and you can hear the inductor extend and seat and at low mag dial this does not occur. Same with the Air Brake kock off Ray's spools. With those you can actually see the inductor extend and seat through the spool porting on the spool without line on the spool..


OK, I explained what I believe I know about the operation of magforce braking. You still have thoughts that the inductor extension on some models is influenced by magnetics. Can you explain your thoughts, please use the strongest magnet you can find and try to influence the extension of the inductor in anyway, my bet is that you will not meet with success.

Good conversation but seems we have reached an impass until more information is provided.

[LowRange]

Only Air Bake is driven by the magnetic field. There are no centrifugal weights present with SV, Air and the Ray's spools. There are only the two ramp shaped peices and if you turn the inductor by hand it extends and then stops in the most outward position. Alternatively you can hold the inductor and roll the spool. Air Brake is made to extend the inductor as the spool rotates do to the interaction of the magnetic field on the inductor. Air brake extends the inductor sooner and a lower spool speeds the greater the magnetic field intensity. I believe the force at work here is the increase in the inertia of the inductor as as the spool rotates the inductor wants to rotate slower and becuse it is free to move a 1/4 turn on the ramp shaped Air Brake it extends as it makes that rotation.

Anyone with an SV spool can easily observe this for themselves by just flicking it. I can hear the soft "tick tick" sound of the inductor extend and seat on all my SV spools. Do you not have an SV spool?