What's next for Daiwa...

[ShimanoFan]

Yep.

[Hobie-Wan Kenobi]

In an effort to keep our threads on topic, I started a new thread regarding future Daiwa reels.

http://www.tackletour.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=79962

[BigG]

It's been 12 years since ChuckE wrote his comments and we're still discussing how the mag brakes work. I just turned 70 and I've have a life experience to share, If it ain't broke don't fix it. I still love Daiwa!

[Tokugawa]

It is not magnetic attraction.

And yet there are magnets but it is not a magnetic attraction?

My debate was over whether or not the "induced" field was variable as someone said it increased and decreased. I said no.

The action, the induction FROM the magnets, is constant. The reaction, the effect you describe, is secondary and is variable. No debate there.

There is no North Pole and South Pole magnetic attraction force involved as the inductor is non-ferrous (i.e. non-magnetic). If they were, the springs would have to be much beefier.

The braking is controlled by counter forces that have a magnitude related to the depth of penetration of the inductor into the cavity. The depth is controlled by the spring constant, inductor mass and rotational velocity.

It is highly non-linear ( iirc it is a 4th order relationship).

[Aquaftm45]

What do you Daiwa users think about mag seal? Do you think Daiwa should keep it??? Or, ditch it?

If Daiwa ever changed anything, it would be to eliminate something that is not very serviceable.

Since you baited this question twice within this thread, I figured why not let you further pontificate out of your strip mall shop backroom. At this point were just entertained.
I just counted, I'm rolling with 14 magseal bearings. They work as designed, fantastic. Whey they don't anymore, I send them off to get fixed. (based on the Yelp reviews and your disdain for Daiwa not to Kel's)
Magseal is not going anywhere. The technology has already been fully integrated into Aerospace, Industrial, Nuclear and most other High Precision Industries. It's just trickling down to recreational industries.
Many Daiwa loyalists want no part of Magseal, want no part of T-wing (another great concept). If I worked on the inards of all of my reels, I might not want it either.
As a newly anointed Daiwa Authorized shop repairman, I am sure we get the pleasure of hearing about all of the busted up Magsealed Daiwas you have been exposed to recently. Have at it.

[LowRange]

Lenz effect doesn't exist

Alumimum is magnetically north/south attracted to magnets

Electromagnetism can not be achieved with magnets because they are not electromagnets

The faster you move the less resistance you will encounter because you're going faster not slower

Magneric brake reels use magnetic energy not the fake "Lenz effect"

Did I miss anything?

[ShimanoFan]

Accuracy. I did not say those things.

Someone said the INDUCED field changes. If the magnets are fixed, how can the induced field change? The magnet's strength is FIXED. Unchanging. How hard is this to comprehend I wonder?

Still scratching my head over that one and how it keeps going on and on into other things.

I still say a fixed magnet's magnetic flux density DOES NOT CHANGE. It remains constant throughout the cast. And the next cast, So let it go already. My mind is made up on this and not changing, so resorting to ridicule with false information goes no where.

I am trying to remain respectful. More than I can say about some others... and admin allows this?

[LowRange]

Accuracy. I did not say those things.

Someone said the INDUCED field changes. If the magnets are fixed, how can the induced field change? The magnet's strength is FIXED. Unchanging. How hard is this to comprehend I wonder?

Still scratching my head over that one and how it keeps going on and on into other things.

I still say a fixed magnet's magnetic flux density DOES NOT CHANGE. It remains constant throughout the cast. And the next cast, So let it go already. My mind is made up on this and not changing, so resorting to ridicule with false information goes no where.

I am trying to remain respectful. More than I can say about some others... and admin allows this?

It does not matter if the magnets are fixed. The spool is not fixed. It is the rotation of the spool that causes the induced current. This has been broken down to you multiple times. Look up Lenz law.

[ShimanoFan]

The braking is controlled by counter forces

What forces? The only "force" is magnetic. There are magnets in the reel. It is magnetic or the magnets have no need to be there!

I know wikipedia is not a great source, but... its a quicky

"Lenz's law (pronounced /ˈlɛnts/), named after the physicist Emil Lenz who formulated it in 1834,[1] states that the direction of the current induced in a conductor by a changing magnetic field is such that the magnetic field created by the induced current opposes the initial changing magnetic field."

It is magnetic. Take the magnets out and see if it works.

[ShimanoFan]

It does not matter if the magnets are fixed. The spool is not fixed. It is the rotation of the spool that causes the induced current. This has been broken down to you multiple times. Look up Lenz law.

Not true. The induced current comes from the magnets. Lenz law says so.

Do you realize the magnets are INDUCING a magnetic field into and through the inductor even when the spool is not rotating? It does not have to rotate to be within an INDUCED magnetic field.

You talk about the spool and the field created in the inductor all you want to. That is not what I was responding to that started this whole thing.

I stand by my statement that the INDUCED field does not change. It is the field created in the receiving end, the spool that does change. I never said it didn't.

We can not debate if we are not talking about the same thing. So let me break it down for you since we are having a communication issue...

Even on a fixed inductor the induced flux does increase and decrease throughout the cast due to spool speed alone

Read Lenz law:

"is such that the magnetic field created by the induced current opposes the initial changing magnetic field."

Let me break it down for you:

"...created by the induced current"

"Created by". What is created? a variable opposing magnetic field in the inductor right? Yeah, not talking about that.

You said the "INDUCED flux" changes... now look at Lenz law... "created by the induced current"

"Created BY what? THE INDUCED CURRENT" which is SOURCED in FIXED MAGNETS that DO NOT increase or decrease throughout the cast. END of story.

"Created by" is over in the spool.

"Induced by" stays with fixed magnets.

You said "INDUCED flux" does increase and decrease. It can't if the "induced flux" emanates from fixed magnets as Lenz law states. Created by and induced by are 2 different things.

I get it that you understand what you are talking about, but we are having a written word miscommunication issue. That's it. I had no idea what a firestorm one word could cause.

This is not a science debate. It is a word/language semantics debate that is pointless and needs to just stop, and for my part I will. I'm done and I hope others are as well and we can move on respectfully.

Are we cool? We both get it. We are both on the same page with the idea of what is happening, but we are having a word debate that just is not resolving itself so I respectfully bail out and hope cooler heads prevail.

[Aquaftm45]

I am trying to remain respectful. More than I can say about some others... and admin allows this?

On my own accord I am going to apologize for being somewhat demeaning. With that said Mr. Shimano I don't think you recognize how you come across, passive aggressive would be my best description, but it's someting a bit more than that.
It's clear as day that this thread was not created for the purpose of debating the innovation (or lack there of) between Shimano products and Daiwa products. You chose to hijack the thread to express your strong opinion towards Shimano and against Daiwa, backed up with your version of the facts and science. You really could have just started your own thread with that purpose and allowed all comers to agree or disagree with you and have the endless debate that really amounts to nothing.

Anyhoo, my dishes are done here and I can now sleep like a baby, with sweet dreams of JDM custom rods dancing in my head.

[ShimanoFan]

I apologize as well. I never intended any of this. I merely posted an opinion and the dominoes fell in ways I could not have imagined.

I did not mean to hijack a thread at all. I simply saw a question and had an answer for it that must have rubbed some the wrong way. I did not mean for it to be this way.

And for the passive aggressive description, I don't think you see that in my original post. If I do come across that way in my responses, it is only after a half dozen piled in on top of me saying how wrong and stupid I am and then going off into ridiculing me and other personal unpleasantness- even an admin did it:(((Unfortunately, Shimanofan's user name checks out. Maxwell he is not. Flux cutting electro-motive force eludes his non-adroit, single spring-driven cranium.))) and I am bewildered as to why. So yes, this tends to compel someone to defend them self in a more aggressive perspective. Hopefully this is understandable.

Now as to my bias, I have been informed by the powers that be that my name here "shimanofan" is an issue so this may change.

I will try and not show my bias in the future because I agree debating brand A versus brand B is pointless and never ending.

[LowRange]

It does not matter if the magnets are fixed. The spool is not fixed. It is the rotation of the spool that causes the induced current. This has been broken down to you multiple times. Look up Lenz law.

Not true. The induced current comes from the magnets. Lenz law says so.

Do you realize the magnets are INDUCING a magnetic field into and through the inductor even when the spool is not rotating? It does not have to rotate to be within an INDUCED magnetic field.

You talk about the spool and the field created in the inductor all you want to. That is not what I was responding to that started this whole thing.

I stand by my statement that the INDUCED field does not change. It is the field created in the receiving end, the spool that does change. I never said it didn't.

We can not debate if we are not talking about the same thing. So let me break it down for you since we are having a communication issue...

Even on a fixed inductor the induced flux does increase and decrease throughout the cast due to spool speed alone

Read Lenz law:

"is such that the magnetic field created by the induced current opposes the initial changing magnetic field."

Let me break it down for you:

"...created by the induced current"

Here is the key to grasping this... "created by". What is created? a variable magnetic field in the inductor right? Yeah, not talking about that. You said the "INDUCED flux" changes... now look at Lenz law...

"Created BY what? THE INDUCED CURRENT" which is SOURCED in FIXED MAGNETS that DO NOT increase or decrease throughout the cast. END of story.

"Created by" is over in the spool.

"Induced by" stays with fixed magnets.

You said "INDUCED flux" does increase and decrease. It can't if the "induced flux" emanates from fixed magnets as Lenz law states.

I get it that you understand what you are talking about, but we are having a written word miscommunication issue. That's it.

This is not a science debate. It is a word/language semantics debate that is pointless and needs to just stop, and for my part I will. I'm done and I hope others are as well and we can move on respectfully.

Are we cool? We both get it. We are both on the same page with the idea of what is happening, but we are having a word debate that just is not resolving itself so I respectfully bail out and hope cooler heads prevail.

False. Rotation of the coil (spool) will increase induced current. Increased induced current results on increased interaction between the two opposing magnetic fields. This is literally how magnetic brake reels work including Shimano DC. THE IDUCED CURRENT IS IN THE SPOOL. THAT IS WHY IT IS CALLED AN INDUCTION ROTOR. IT IS THE INDUCED FIELD THAT CHANGES WITH ROTATION.

See: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... arlaw.html

Faraday's law

Any change in the magnetic environment of a coil of wire will cause a voltage (emf) to be "induced" in the coil. No matter how the change is produced, the voltage will be generated. The change could be produced by changing the magnetic field strength, moving a magnet toward or away from the coil, moving the coil into or out of the magnetic field, rotating the coil relative to the magnet, etc

Lenz's Law

When an emf is generated by a change in magnetic flux according to Faraday's Law, the polarity of the induced emf is such that it produces a current whose magnetic field opposes the change which produces it. The induced magnetic field inside any loop of wire always acts to keep the magnetic flux in the loop constant. In the examples below, if the B field is increasing, the induced field acts in opposition to it. If it is decreasing, the induced field acts in the direction of the applied field to try to keep it constant.

[ShimanoFan]

Hilarious! The faraday law does not even apply to a fishing reel.

As I stated from the top, the originating field of energy comes from fixed magnets that does NOT change throughout the entire cast. It is this originating energy field that is INDUCTING a return field into the spool by way of Lenz effect.

That is a fact that can not and will not change because some around here are not comprehending physics- like trying to apply generation laws to a friggin' reel! Show me the coils in the Daiwa spool!

Hey, gravity pulls at the spool too! How does that affect it?

And the number of people who actually stated it is NOT a magnetic operation! Amazing! I suppose Daiwa has no need of the magnets in their reels then since it is NOT magnetic as the experts around here claim! Amazing!

Choosing to be wrong is OK with me.

So is it clear now that the field of energy the magnets induce into the spool never changes? Stays constant throughout the cast just as I stated?

This has been a lesson in frustration more than anything else, if not entertaining...

[LowRange]

Daiwa reels are filled with coils and electromagnets?

OK. You can have the last word.

You are 100% right. I am 110% wrong.

I'm done. All the best.

A coil and magnets, yes. The spool is the coil. A current is induced into this coil when in the presence of the magnetic field produced by the magnets. Rotation of the coil in relation to the magnets increases induced current. The polarity of the induced current opposes the field which generated it (the magnets). More spool spinny = more brakey.