Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Reels are the hottest topic for TackleTour. Everyone wants to know what the latest and greatest is and how they compare to the old guard. What's the best for light stuff, or what's your suggestion for heavy cover. Do we really need different retrieve ratios? It's all in here.
User avatar
daiwafan
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 442
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:39 pm
Location: Bluefield West (by god) Virginia

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby daiwafan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:46 am

bigturtle wrote:https://youtu.be/pYNEm4I6H8E?t=934
Remember this? big head-scratcher on so many levels


Yeah, I don't know how in the world a dedicated BFS reel (SS air) can throw 1/8 oz only 70 or so feet, unless you choke the settings down so that it cannot cast freely. I have a reel with that same spool that can do 1/8 oz 100 any day. I also have a Tatula sv that went about 70 with 1/8 oz before I cleaned the grease off the spool shaft and changed the bearings, after this minor maintenance it did 92 with the same weight

The test you reference made me sceptical of all YouTube cast comparisons done by this guy.

bigturtle
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:23 am

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby bigturtle » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:35 am

daiwafan wrote:
bigturtle wrote:https://youtu.be/pYNEm4I6H8E?t=934
Remember this? big head-scratcher on so many levels


Yeah, I don't know how in the world a dedicated BFS reel (SS air) can throw 1/8 oz only 70 or so feet, unless you choke the settings down so that it cannot cast freely. I have a reel with that same spool that can do 1/8 oz 100 any day. I also have a Tatula sv that went about 70 with 1/8 oz before I cleaned the grease off the spool shaft and changed the bearings, after this minor maintenance it did 92 with the same weight

The test you reference made me sceptical of all YouTube cast comparisons done by this guy.

ya, lets throw some 10lb mono on a bfs reel and put it on an uglystik of all things :lol: I bet that uglystik can chuck 1/2-5/8oz lures no problem

ScoobyDoo
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:38 am

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby ScoobyDoo » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:58 am

spencerinstl wrote:
ScoobyDoo wrote:I swapped out the czb bearing at the base of the handle shaft where it meets the frame.
And the play I had whined about like a "britney spears fan who got grounded and can't go to the concert" in the handle has been diminished noticeable. As in no longer there. Which is exactly what I had assumed.

What did you swap the czb bushing out with?


Ball bearings.

User avatar
Rippin-lips
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:00 pm

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby Rippin-lips » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:05 pm

SSS wrote:
Rippin-lips wrote:The zero adjuster makes perfect sense. It comes preset for optimal performance. A lot of users don’t understand how it should be setup for the best results. This feature has now eliminated that issue. It’s not something they’re pushing like the tws but it is handy.
what if you swap spools and the shaft isn't exactly the same lenght? I still need to adjust it.


There aren’t looking at it from that standpoint though. Average everyday anglers who are fishing a stock reel.

SSS
Senior Angler
Senior Angler
Posts: 158
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:38 pm

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby SSS » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:10 pm

daiwafan wrote:
bigturtle wrote:https://youtu.be/pYNEm4I6H8E?t=934
Remember this? big head-scratcher on so many levels


Yeah, I don't know how in the world a dedicated BFS reel (SS air) can throw 1/8 oz only 70 or so feet, unless you choke the settings down so that it cannot cast freely. I have a reel with that same spool that can do 1/8 oz 100 any day. I also have a Tatula sv that went about 70 with 1/8 oz before I cleaned the grease off the spool shaft and changed the bearings, after this minor maintenance it did 92 with the same weight

The test you reference made me sceptical of all YouTube cast comparisons done by this guy.
that guy doesn't know how to use mag brakes on daiwas. He chocke em on all his videos. I mean, let be real here. Mag brakes were and always will be the best braking system (excluding DC) at casting aero dynamic lure/weights. He throws bullet weights and the centrifugal system of the older shimanos is winning 95%+ of the times? Get out of here.

SSS
Senior Angler
Senior Angler
Posts: 158
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:38 pm

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby SSS » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:17 pm

Rippin-lips wrote:
SSS wrote:
Rippin-lips wrote:The zero adjuster makes perfect sense. It comes preset for optimal performance. A lot of users don’t understand how it should be setup for the best results. This feature has now eliminated that issue. It’s not something they’re pushing like the tws but it is handy.
what if you swap spools and the shaft isn't exactly the same lenght? I still need to adjust it.


There aren’t looking at it from that standpoint though. Average everyday anglers who are fishing a stock reel.
Maybe, but this is a high end reel. They should take into account the fact that many buying these, may very well swap spools (especially since its the 34mm spool, the most popular they have). I know 2 peeps with this reel, both of them swap the hell out of the original spool.

Now, if this was a cheap $100 reel with a 31mm spool, the zero adjuster would make sense since ain't no body swapping spools there.

bigturtle
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:23 am

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby bigturtle » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:43 pm

"Matt Baldwin3 days ago
So in 20mph wind with completely subjective effort casting, your result showed a 1% difference in results and that is a win? You might want to talk to 13 Fishing and they can give you some tips on how to set up the Z because it is different than what you are used to...and after watching your videos its obvious that you haven't given yourself enough time to learn this. The CZB material spins more consistently than a bearing so its more controllable. The reason its more consistent is because you don't have to rely on all the balls to start moving and the lubrication of the balls makes a difference also. You will know your effort is consistent because the Z's casts will drop in virtually the EXACT same spot every time, this is how I know your results are flawed. To maximize it loosen the cast control quite a bit more than you would normally, you don't need the extra tension because of the CZB material. Its frustrating to watch someone give a review before they have properly tested and fished a product. I would say perhaps you missed the point entirely of the Concept Z. You are focused on distance and you forgot about effortless casting, pitching, flipping, skipping docks, etc. Do you realize that a ZERO BALL BEARING reel just performed like that? Now lets go fish them both in brackish or saltwater for a month. Then lets do the same test. then another month and lets do the same test....lets watch the performance loss of the bearings. Then lets see how much the angler spends replacing them. All reels feel great when they are brand new out of the box. Don't get so lost in a subjective casting test that you forgot that the reel was built to fish with. Lets get it on the water and see why everyone is so excited. -Matt Baldwin-Director of development-REELS 13 Fishing."

So normally you dont back off the spool tension too much because it makes the spool spin way too fast, thus hard to control and backlash, how come you are able to back off the spool tension quite a bit more than usual with the CZB? Is it because there is more friction between the CBZ and the spool shaft, thus making it more controllable and consistent, or is there another reason for this?

ScoobyDoo
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:38 am

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby ScoobyDoo » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:42 pm

bigturtle wrote:
daiwafan wrote:
bigturtle wrote:https://youtu.be/pYNEm4I6H8E?t=934
Remember this? big head-scratcher on so many levels


Yeah, I don't know how in the world a dedicated BFS reel (SS air) can throw 1/8 oz only 70 or so feet, unless you choke the settings down so that it cannot cast freely. I have a reel with that same spool that can do 1/8 oz 100 any day. I also have a Tatula sv that went about 70 with 1/8 oz before I cleaned the grease off the spool shaft and changed the bearings, after this minor maintenance it did 92 with the same weight

The test you reference made me sceptical of all YouTube cast comparisons done by this guy.

ya, lets throw some 10lb mono on a bfs reel and put it on an uglystik of all things :lol: I bet that uglystik can chuck 1/2-5/8oz lures no problem


I watched that today...I found it odd that in order to get that rapala ul minnow to go he had to turn the brakes so high and add so much spool tension.

I had my bfs abu mgx and that lure on a rod I made out of inside corner molding and zip ties that was like 4' long throwing pin point 70+ feet with no effort. And I could get that distance on a steez sv tws too. And I swap out the trebles and put on singles so it's a tad lighter...(lure sinks but floats on the hook's bends on the bottom)

But if you look...he uses the same snappy overhead short drop and short stroke where the rod doesn't start to load until the very end..Even though it looks like he tries to load it on the back swing.....So i'd bet he needs that high braking to straighten out the plug and keep it from tumbling and backlashing mid cast.....((he now makes fun of me and says I"m a self proclaimed master caster....lmao))

ScoobyDoo
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:38 am

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby ScoobyDoo » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:53 pm

bigturtle wrote:"Matt Baldwin3 days ago
So in 20mph wind with completely subjective effort casting, your result showed a 1% difference in results and that is a win? You might want to talk to 13 Fishing and they can give you some tips on how to set up the Z because it is different than what you are used to...and after watching your videos its obvious that you haven't given yourself enough time to learn this. The CZB material spins more consistently than a bearing so its more controllable. The reason its more consistent is because you don't have to rely on all the balls to start moving and the lubrication of the balls makes a difference also. You will know your effort is consistent because the Z's casts will drop in virtually the EXACT same spot every time, this is how I know your results are flawed. To maximize it loosen the cast control quite a bit more than you would normally, you don't need the extra tension because of the CZB material. Its frustrating to watch someone give a review before they have properly tested and fished a product. I would say perhaps you missed the point entirely of the Concept Z. You are focused on distance and you forgot about effortless casting, pitching, flipping, skipping docks, etc. Do you realize that a ZERO BALL BEARING reel just performed like that? Now lets go fish them both in brackish or saltwater for a month. Then lets do the same test. then another month and lets do the same test....lets watch the performance loss of the bearings. Then lets see how much the angler spends replacing them. All reels feel great when they are brand new out of the box. Don't get so lost in a subjective casting test that you forgot that the reel was built to fish with. Lets get it on the water and see why everyone is so excited. -Matt Baldwin-Director of development-REELS 13 Fishing."

So normally you dont back off the spool tension too much because it makes the spool spin way too fast, thus hard to control and backlash, how come you are able to back off the spool tension quite a bit more than usual with the CZB? Is it because there is more friction between the CBZ and the spool shaft, thus making it more controllable and consistent, or is there another reason for this?



For me personally....Out of the big named reels.....Abu, Okuma, shimano, daiwa.
There isn't a single reel in their line ups that oyu can't back out the spool tensioner all the way to a setting that allows for a slight bit of side to side travel. And set the brakes at a setting that will still cast thumb free with something like a moppy jig. Every reel can be cast with out any spool tention. Abut has mag and centrifugal brakes in the same reel :)
Daiwa goes PAST 11....and 6 pin centrifugal brakes can seemingly stop a bus :)
So when I read his comment..I wasn't sure if he meant...you should back it out beyond the point where it would not "squeeze" the spool shaft and apply friction. Or just set it so there is just a minimal bit of side to side play.

bigturtle
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 247
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:23 am

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby bigturtle » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:27 pm

ScoobyDoo wrote:For me personally....Out of the big named reels.....Abu, Okuma, shimano, daiwa.
There isn't a single reel in their line ups that oyu can't back out the spool tensioner all the way to a setting that allows for a slight bit of side to side travel. And set the brakes at a setting that will still cast thumb free with something like a moppy jig. Every reel can be cast with out any spool tention. Abut has mag and centrifugal brakes in the same reel :)
Daiwa goes PAST 11....and 6 pin centrifugal brakes can seemingly stop a bus :)
So when I read his comment..I wasn't sure if he meant...you should back it out beyond the point where it would not "squeeze" the spool shaft and apply friction. Or just set it so there is just a minimal bit of side to side play.


When I think of normal spool tension, I think of the spool having around 1mm of play on both sides. When I hear backing off the tension quite a bit, im imagining 3mm or so of play on both sides.

ScoobyDoo
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:38 am

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby ScoobyDoo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:06 am

bigturtle wrote:
ScoobyDoo wrote:For me personally....Out of the big named reels.....Abu, Okuma, shimano, daiwa.
There isn't a single reel in their line ups that oyu can't back out the spool tensioner all the way to a setting that allows for a slight bit of side to side travel. And set the brakes at a setting that will still cast thumb free with something like a moppy jig. Every reel can be cast with out any spool tention. Abut has mag and centrifugal brakes in the same reel :)
Daiwa goes PAST 11....and 6 pin centrifugal brakes can seemingly stop a bus :)
So when I read his comment..I wasn't sure if he meant...you should back it out beyond the point where it would not "squeeze" the spool shaft and apply friction. Or just set it so there is just a minimal bit of side to side play.


When I think of normal spool tension, I think of the spool having around 1mm of play on both sides. When I hear backing off the tension quite a bit, im imagining 3mm or so of play on both sides.


Yeah...so we're pretty much in the same boat. Maybe not a full mm normally..but not impact.

I wonder if 13 could clarify

User avatar
13Fishing
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:21 pm

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby 13Fishing » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:47 am

Keeping in mind the reel is designed for Inshore Saltwater and Freshwater Bass fishing. This reel was not intended for throwing 500+' in casting competitions....

So starting there with a 7-7.5' rod and a bait in a reasonable range of 1/2-1oz. If you would normally fish our Concept Series set on 2-3 active brake weights and a normal tension(1mm play or less on cast control cap)

The Concept Z will perform better set with 1 brake weight active and 1.5mm play on the cast control cap. The CZB material is easier to control the cast RPMs, its more predictable and more consistent than the ball bearing. This leads to being able to set it in a more free position when making casts.

This performance difference can be seen when pitching docks, or making specific accurate pitches and flips. Additionally the CZB will showcase controllable distance with less effort.

Everyone seems to think we are out to eliminate ball bearings, we aren't. Everyone seems to think we are saying that the CZB is better than a ball bearing, we aren't.

We are trying to change an ideology in the fishing business and to do that we had to make a bold statement with a ZERO BALL BEARING REEL. We definitely have done that. It is very clear to us that a fishing reel definitely can benefit from a high performance polymer material bearing. For specific purposes, for specific reel locations, and for specific applications an angler can use a CZB bearing and he/she can and will benefit from it. The Concept Z is the first taste of a new type of bearing, showcasing its traits.

Matt
13 Fishing

ScoobyDoo
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:38 am

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby ScoobyDoo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:16 am

13Fishing wrote:Keeping in mind the reel is designed for Inshore Saltwater and Freshwater Bass fishing. This reel was not intended for throwing 500+' in casting competitions....

So starting there with a 7-7.5' rod and a bait in a reasonable range of 1/2-1oz. If you would normally fish our Concept Series set on 2-3 active brake weights and a normal tension(1mm play or less on cast control cap)

The Concept Z will perform better set with 1 brake weight active and 1.5mm play on the cast control cap. The CZB material is easier to control the cast RPMs, its more predictable and more consistent than the ball bearing. This leads to being able to set it in a more free position when making casts.

This performance difference can be seen when pitching docks, or making specific accurate pitches and flips. Additionally the CZB will showcase controllable distance with less effort.

Everyone seems to think we are out to eliminate ball bearings, we aren't. Everyone seems to think we are saying that the CZB is better than a ball bearing, we aren't.

We are trying to change an ideology in the fishing business and to do that we had to make a bold statement with a ZERO BALL BEARING REEL. We definitely have done that. It is very clear to us that a fishing reel definitely can benefit from a high performance polymer material bearing. For specific purposes, for specific reel locations, and for specific applications an angler can use a CZB bearing and he/she can and will benefit from it. The Concept Z is the first taste of a new type of bearing, showcasing its traits.

Matt
13 Fishing


I understand what you're saying 100%
I 100% agree with you in regards to the saltwater friendliness, how consistent they will cast from start to finish, and how not requiring lube means fishermen won't do more harm than good when lubing their bearings.

But
When the 3rd sentence on 13 fishing's website reads...."this reel cast significantly further than reels with traditional ball bearings"
And commercials put out by 13 have guys gushing and making claims of 20%.......ya gotta watch out.
It's flat out not true, what was that based on? The reason why this real got any attention in the first place was because of those claims. Not because you can pitch docks.


Then you have the youtube promoters which are flat out just bs'ing...that flukemaster comparison was a joke. Though I agree with him about the brake settings of 2 3 or 4 being more suitable than 1 for all around.
1 brake on was not a fun way to throw a jig or any lures other than just short range pitching.

I do have a few questions.
Can you see if the tolerances for the czb's are supposed to be tight or loose? As every one in my reel has fairly wide gaps. Much greater than that of ball bearings and their respective races.
When it says Japanese Hamai cut gearing. What is the country of origin for the gear set.
And....are these manufactured in factories owned by Okuma? It looks like some reels in the past shared quite a bit. I'm wanting to clear that up since I've been asked that quite a bit recently.

User avatar
13Fishing
Elite Angler
Elite Angler
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:21 pm

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby 13Fishing » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:43 am

Scoobie,

The tolerances on a CZB are slightly(your talking .001mm here) looser than an inside race of a Ball bearing intentionally. We have done a lot of testing to find the performance and durability spot. In order to understand this, you must first understand this material. This is not at all like plastics used in the past for bushings, nor is it anything like a sintered bronze bushing they have used in reels before.

As you know, Hamai is a high end Japanese precision machine(We proudly believe this is the best machine in the world for this purpose and our state of the art factories use the latest and greatest), our gears are cut in Korea.

Okuma does not own our factory...lol, they are a direct competitor and have nothing to do with 13 Fishing. All 13 Fishing reels are designed by 13 Fishing, and are industry unique to us. We select our manufacturing facility as we see fit to deliver the product to our specifications. Just as Daiwa, Shimano, Abu, Quantum/Zebco, Lews, and all the other top brands do. They're are only a few factories in the world that are owned outright by reel brands and they produce only a very small segment of the reels in the North American market. You might be surprised how many Shimano and Daiwa reels are made by contract manufacturers...i personally visit many of them as they welcome our business. We currently use over 25 manufacturing facilities around the world.

Matt
13 Fishing

User avatar
BRONZEBACK32
Platinum Angler
Platinum Angler
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:44 pm
Location: Utah

Re: Concept Z initial impressions. Did I expect too much?

Postby BRONZEBACK32 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:29 pm

I will still take a 13 any day over a favorite/select fishing reel....

:big grin:


Return to “Reels”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bassasaurus and 6 guests