Reel Gear Physics

[kstephes033]

maybe im off on this, but doesnt a longer handle increase the gear ratio/speed? Gear ratio if im not mistaken is the amount of times a spool does a complete rotation per 1 turn of the handle. If you have a longer handle, you are turning the spool more times in one rotation vs a shorter handle... It takes longer, therefore more rotations, for the handle to go in a full circle. So being that a 100 size handle is 25% longer than an 80, wouldnt that mean you would gain 25% more rotations per turn of the handle? 7:1 then turns into 8.75:1 (maybe wouldnt be the same direct rotational upgrade, but still would be faster)?

[LowRange]

One rotation of the input shaft is one rotation of the input shaft. The longer the radius of the handle the slower the handle knobs will be moving and vice versa. Line recovery based on handle length has to do with the ease of making small circles with the hand. For example it is easy to rapidly spin a 3 inch handle than one that is 3 feet long in that many more rotations of the input shaft can be made by the 3 inch long handle per unit of time. What about power? Surely the 3 foot long handle has more power than the 3 inch long handle? "Power" is more of about effort and mechanical advantage in the form of leverage. The longer the handle the less effort is needed to rotate the input shaft. A nice balance in ease of effort and small circles of the hand is between 80 and 120 mm comonly. I opt for 90 bit have both 84 and 110.

[IAY]

maybe im off on this, but doesnt a longer handle increase the gear ratio/speed? Gear ratio if im not mistaken is the amount of times a spool does a complete rotation per 1 turn of the handle. If you have a longer handle, you are turning the spool more times in one rotation vs a shorter handle... It takes longer, therefore more rotations, for the handle to go in a full circle. So being that a 100 size handle is 25% longer than an 80, wouldnt that mean you would gain 25% more rotations per turn of the handle? 7:1 then turns into 8.75:1 (maybe wouldnt be the same direct rotational upgrade, but still would be faster)?

No, the IPT stays constant. Only the time it takes for you to complete the turn changes.

[Tavery5]

Adding longer handle does increase the torque being applied to the drive shaft though, because torque equation takes into account of distance between the pivot point to the point where you are applying the force. Think about it this way; when you are adding more length to the handle, you are increasing the distance that you have to rotate to achieve one rotation due to the larger diameter, so you are applying more force to cause it travel the same distance that shorter handle would.

I'm not sure but we may be discussing the same thing, just in different terms. If you use a 1 foot torque wrench to apply 10lbs of torque or a 10 ft torque wrench to apply 10lbs of torque, the torque applied is the same, it is just less difficult to apply the torque with the longer wrench.

[IAY]

Adding longer handle does increase the torque being applied to the drive shaft though, because torque equation takes into account of distance between the pivot point to the point where you are applying the force. Think about it this way; when you are adding more length to the handle, you are increasing the distance that you have to rotate to achieve one rotation due to the larger diameter, so you are applying more force to cause it travel the same distance that shorter handle would.

I'm not sure but we may be discussing the same thing, just in different terms. If you use a 1 foot torque wrench to apply 10lbs of torque or a 10 ft torque wrench to apply 10lbs of torque, the torque applied is the same, it is just less difficult to apply the torque with the longer wrench.

Yeah, you need less amount of force to apply the same amount of power because of the increased length of the wrench.

[mark poulson]

First off I'd like to say that I am not a physicist nor is it my specialty and will probably be wrong with these figures. Please feel free to chime in and correct me.

Sometimes when I'm bored at work the gears in my head turn it gets me thinking... A lot of people TT like to upgrade their handle length to increase the torque of their reels (myself included). This got me thinking about the equivalent gear ratio of the reel with the new longer handle compared to the old handle.

Example 1:
Daiwa Luna 103L
5.8 gear ratio
80mm stock handle

I swapped in a 100mm handle, an effective gain of 25% more torque. 80mm (1.25) = 100mm. Which makes it easier to retrieve in those deep diving crankbaits. Using the same theory of 25% gain. Would it be the equivalent of the Luna having with a 4.64 gear ratio with the 80mm handle? 5.8 / 1.25 = 4.64.

Example 2:
Daiwa Alphas SV
7.2 Gear Ratio
80mm stock handle

Swapped in a 90mm handle. An increase of 12.5%. So 7.2 / 1.125 = 6.4 with the 80mm handle.

Adding a longer handle is not changing the torque of the reel. Adding a longer handle only makes it easier to apply the same amount of torque to the input shaft. The amount of torque applied to the spool is a direct result of the gear ratio.
In other words a 100 lbs of torque is a 100 lbs of torque, regardless if is it applied with a 10 inch or a 10 ft wrench. The 10 ft wrench obviously makes it easier to apply, this is the benefit of leverage.

Two reels, each with a different gear ratio , one is a 6.0:1 reel the other is a 7.0:1 reel, apply an equal amount of torque to the input shaft and the reel with the lower gear ratio will provide more torque to the spool. Two reels with an equal gear ratio, 5.0:1, the reel with the taller gears will provide more torque to the spool.

So, if your logic were correct, a longer wrench with the same size socket wouldn't add torque?

It definitely adds leverage.

Exactly.

[Tavery5]

First off I'd like to say that I am not a physicist nor is it my specialty and will probably be wrong with these figures. Please feel free to chime in and correct me.

Sometimes when I'm bored at work the gears in my head turn it gets me thinking... A lot of people TT like to upgrade their handle length to increase the torque of their reels (myself included). This got me thinking about the equivalent gear ratio of the reel with the new longer handle compared to the old handle.

Example 1:
Daiwa Luna 103L
5.8 gear ratio
80mm stock handle

I swapped in a 100mm handle, an effective gain of 25% more torque. 80mm (1.25) = 100mm. Which makes it easier to retrieve in those deep diving crankbaits. Using the same theory of 25% gain. Would it be the equivalent of the Luna having with a 4.64 gear ratio with the 80mm handle? 5.8 / 1.25 = 4.64.

Example 2:
Daiwa Alphas SV
7.2 Gear Ratio
80mm stock handle

Swapped in a 90mm handle. An increase of 12.5%. So 7.2 / 1.125 = 6.4 with the 80mm handle.

Adding a longer handle is not changing the torque of the reel. Adding a longer handle only makes it easier to apply the same amount of torque to the input shaft. The amount of torque applied to the spool is a direct result of the gear ratio.
In other words a 100 lbs of torque is a 100 lbs of torque, regardless if is it applied with a 10 inch or a 10 ft wrench. The 10 ft wrench obviously makes it easier to apply, this is the benefit of leverage.

Two reels, each with a different gear ratio , one is a 6.0:1 reel the other is a 7.0:1 reel, apply an equal amount of torque to the input shaft and the reel with the lower gear ratio will provide more torque to the spool. Two reels with an equal gear ratio, 5.0:1, the reel with the taller gears will provide more torque to the spool.

So, if your logic were correct, a longer wrench with the same size socket wouldn't add torque?

It definitely adds leverage.

Exactly.

The longer wrench does not add torque, it reduces the amount of force required to achieve the same amount of torque through leverage.

[IAY]

Adding a longer handle is not changing the torque of the reel. Adding a longer handle only makes it easier to apply the same amount of torque to the input shaft. The amount of torque applied to the spool is a direct result of the gear ratio.
In other words a 100 lbs of torque is a 100 lbs of torque, regardless if is it applied with a 10 inch or a 10 ft wrench. The 10 ft wrench obviously makes it easier to apply, this is the benefit of leverage.

Two reels, each with a different gear ratio , one is a 6.0:1 reel the other is a 7.0:1 reel, apply an equal amount of torque to the input shaft and the reel with the lower gear ratio will provide more torque to the spool. Two reels with an equal gear ratio, 5.0:1, the reel with the taller gears will provide more torque to the spool.

So, if your logic were correct, a longer wrench with the same size socket wouldn't add torque?

It definitely adds leverage.

Exactly.

The longer wrench does not add torque, it reduces the amount of force required to achieve the same amount of torque through leverage.

There is no leverage in reels and there is no leverage in wrench. Leverage requires an object to exist past the fulcrum, you are just applying power to the drive gear which is a fixed point. Torque calculation is (radius)x(Force)x(angular factor based on the direction that force is being applied and direction the lever is turning). If you increase the length of the handle, you are increasing the torque.

[LgMouthGambler]

So, if your logic were correct, a longer wrench with the same size socket wouldn't add torque?

It definitely adds leverage.

Exactly.

The longer wrench does not add torque, it reduces the amount of force required to achieve the same amount of torque through leverage.

There is no leverage in reels and there is no leverage in wrench. Leverage requires an object to exist past the fulcrum, you are just applying power to the drive gear which is a fixed point. Torque calculation is (radius)x(Force)x(angular factor based on the direction that force is being applied and direction the lever is turning). If you increase the length of the handle, you are increasing the torque.

Yes. But by increasing the handle length, you are then increasing the leverage in which to turn the shaft to create the torque. Just like having a longer wrench or ratchet to turn a bolt or nut.

[Tavery5]

So, if your logic were correct, a longer wrench with the same size socket wouldn't add torque?

It definitely adds leverage.

Exactly.

The longer wrench does not add torque, it reduces the amount of force required to achieve the same amount of torque through leverage.

There is no leverage in reels and there is no leverage in wrench. Leverage requires an object to exist past the fulcrum, you are just applying power to the drive gear which is a fixed point. Torque calculation is (radius)x(Force)x(angular factor based on the direction that force is being applied and direction the lever is turning). If you increase the length of the handle, you are increasing the torque.

Or reducing the amount of input force required to obtain the same torque. Please explain what object is past the fulcrum in a class 2 or class 3 lever.

[IAY]

It definitely adds leverage.

Exactly.

The longer wrench does not add torque, it reduces the amount of force required to achieve the same amount of torque through leverage.

There is no leverage in reels and there is no leverage in wrench. Leverage requires an object to exist past the fulcrum, you are just applying power to the drive gear which is a fixed point. Torque calculation is (radius)x(Force)x(angular factor based on the direction that force is being applied and direction the lever is turning). If you increase the length of the handle, you are increasing the torque.

Or reducing the amount of input force required to obtain the same torque. Please explain what object is past the fulcrum in a class 2 or class 3 lever.

There is no object, we are literally turning the handle to turn the drive shaft.

[Slazmo]

What really has me stumped is with two speed handles where one handle is longer than the other.

Or same length but one handle knob is closer to the handle shaft nut and counterbalanced.

Rays studio knob shaft kit could see you make your own two speed handle easily enough.

[Teal101]

The gear ratio never changes, just the amount of force needed to rotate the handle. Think of a socket wrench on a large nut like a castle nut on a stub shaft. It's rough to move on a standard 24" bar, but add 4' of cheater and it pops loose. You didnt increase the rate at which the nut was turned, you just increased the force required to turn the nut.

[Tavery5]

Exactly.

The longer wrench does not add torque, it reduces the amount of force required to achieve the same amount of torque through leverage.

There is no leverage in reels and there is no leverage in wrench. Leverage requires an object to exist past the fulcrum, you are just applying power to the drive gear which is a fixed point. Torque calculation is (radius)x(Force)x(angular factor based on the direction that force is being applied and direction the lever is turning). If you increase the length of the handle, you are increasing the torque.

Or reducing the amount of input force required to obtain the same torque. Please explain what object is past the fulcrum in a class 2 or class 3 lever.

There is no object, we are literally turning the handle to turn the drive shaft.

I will concede to your argument if you put a name to the mechanical advantage that is gained by adding length to a device used for applying torque.

[Teal101]

Leverage