Why doesn't Daiwa face the TWS grooving issue？(with pics)

[IlliniDawg01]

Some questions keep bugging me.

Why does Shimano use black material (SIC?) and Daiwa some sort of metal for their line guide?

Antares, Metanium and even an almost 9 year old Citica = black Lineguide
Daiwa Z, Ryoga, Tatula, Zillion = shiny metal

Maybe the black material Shimano uses is more durable and solves the problem?

If the Shimano guides are indeed all ceramic then they will last better. I believe any decent ceramic is still significantly harder than any metal, regardless of the coating.

DaveJ

For this reason the line guide inserts are ceramic. It would make sense to use the same material in a reels line guide. Or not?

I would think a good quality Ceramic would be a better choice, but I have no idea how hard it is to make different shapes with ceramics, let alone a complicated shape like the TWing. A ceramic insert in that edge would probably be pretty doable for them but certainly would cost more.

DaveJ

[Bassmar]

Some questions keep bugging me.

Why does Shimano use black material (SIC?) and Daiwa some sort of metal for their line guide?

Antares, Metanium and even an almost 9 year old Citica = black Lineguide
Daiwa Z, Ryoga, Tatula, Zillion = shiny metal

Maybe the black material Shimano uses is more durable and solves the problem?

If the Shimano guides are indeed all ceramic then they will last better. I believe any decent ceramic is still significantly harder than any metal, regardless of the coating.

DaveJ

For this reason the line guide inserts are ceramic. It would make sense to use the same material in a reels line guide. Or not?

I would think a good quality Ceramic would be a better choice, but I have no idea how hard it is to make different shapes with ceramics, let alone a complicated shape like the TWing. A ceramic insert in that edge would probably be pretty doable for them but certainly would cost more.

DaveJ

And it might not be as groovy.

[QUAKEnSHAKE]

Some questions keep bugging me.

Why does Shimano use black material (SIC?) and Daiwa some sort of metal for their line guide?

Antares, Metanium and even an almost 9 year old Citica = black Lineguide
Daiwa Z, Ryoga, Tatula, Zillion = shiny metal

Maybe the black material Shimano uses is more durable and solves the problem?

No black line guide on my shimano reels.

[dragon1]

Ceramic line guides go back a long ways...decades, for lots of different manufacturers. Gold or titanium coated aluminum/metal line guides are plenty enough durable...in this case with the TWS, the grooving is caused by certain tension line angles on the TWS metal line guide.

But yes, I have stated all along that a "basic" hardloy is all that would be required. While ceramic is not as impact resistant as metal, the cost of the hardloy itself is not likely the reason, rather the "forming" of the TWS in ceramic form "might be". Granted Daiwa could glue in a ceramic insert to fit inside the TWS (which would still affect cost).

[mark poulson]

Ceramic line guides go back a long ways...decades, for lots of different manufacturers. Gold or titanium coated aluminum/metal line guides are plenty enough durable...in this case with the TWS, the grooving is caused by certain tension line angles on the TWS metal line guide.

But yes, I have stated all along that a "basic" hardloy is all that would be required. While ceramic is not as impact resistant as metal, the cost of the hardloy itself is not likely the reason, rather the "forming" of the TWS in ceramic form "might be". Granted Daiwa could glue in a ceramic insert to fit inside the TWS (which would still affect cost).

Or they could just adopt Oleg's fix, and eliminate the line tension problem completely.

[IlliniDawg01]

Ceramic line guides go back a long ways...decades, for lots of different manufacturers. Gold or titanium coated aluminum/metal line guides are plenty enough durable...in this case with the TWS, the grooving is caused by certain tension line angles on the TWS metal line guide.

But yes, I have stated all along that a "basic" hardloy is all that would be required. While ceramic is not as impact resistant as metal, the cost of the hardloy itself is not likely the reason, rather the "forming" of the TWS in ceramic form "might be". Granted Daiwa could glue in a ceramic insert to fit inside the TWS (which would still affect cost).

Or they could just adopt Oleg's fix, and eliminate the line tension problem completely.

Yeah, I would vote for this. Simple, and actually uses less metal. Would have saved Daiwa money...

DaveJ

[dragon1]

Ceramic line guides go back a long ways...decades, for lots of different manufacturers. Gold or titanium coated aluminum/metal line guides are plenty enough durable...in this case with the TWS, the grooving is caused by certain tension line angles on the TWS metal line guide.

But yes, I have stated all along that a "basic" hardloy is all that would be required. While ceramic is not as impact resistant as metal, the cost of the hardloy itself is not likely the reason, rather the "forming" of the TWS in ceramic form "might be". Granted Daiwa could glue in a ceramic insert to fit inside the TWS (which would still affect cost).

Or they could just adopt Oleg's fix, and eliminate the line tension problem completely.

Yeah, I would vote for this. Simple, and actually uses less metal. Would have saved Daiwa money...

DaveJ

And pay Oleg a handsome reward! A new TOP-END Daiwa reel annually for life?

[mark poulson]

Ceramic line guides go back a long ways...decades, for lots of different manufacturers. Gold or titanium coated aluminum/metal line guides are plenty enough durable...in this case with the TWS, the grooving is caused by certain tension line angles on the TWS metal line guide.

But yes, I have stated all along that a "basic" hardloy is all that would be required. While ceramic is not as impact resistant as metal, the cost of the hardloy itself is not likely the reason, rather the "forming" of the TWS in ceramic form "might be". Granted Daiwa could glue in a ceramic insert to fit inside the TWS (which would still affect cost).

Or they could just adopt Oleg's fix, and eliminate the line tension problem completely.

Yeah, I would vote for this. Simple, and actually uses less metal. Would have saved Daiwa money...

DaveJ

And pay Oleg a handsome reward! A new TOP-END Daiwa reel annually for life?

I like how you think!

[mark poulson]

Now, now Oleg, don't get greedy. If the good folks at Daiwa only give you one every two months, for life, just bite the bullet and suffer in silence.

[slicksouthpaw]

watch daiwa steal olegs idea

[mark poulson]

watch daiwa steal olegs idea

I'm sure it would just be a case of parallel evolution.

[AndZ]

OK, checked my Tatula Type-R reels last evening. I own 2, used last season for tournament fishing with 30 lbs. FX1 Sunline braided, mostly... and some 12 lbs. fluorocarbon recently.

Guess what? I too noticed 2 grooves on one of my Tatula's TWS. Right on the edge. In weekend I'm gonna break it down and take some macro pictures of that thing. Already sent mails to my JDM tackle provider to look for the spare parts... hopefully I will solve the issue if the Daiwa has indeed released a redesigned line guide for the Tatula series.

The (old) part costs on SL Planets 3,800 JPY, almost 28 euro a piece at the current exchange rate. There goes 56 euro + shipping for 2 reels. Both were bought new in box from an ebay tackle shop.

I always fill my spools to the top and I guess that's the cause of grooving. A buddy of mine has one Tatula that doesn't exhibit any sign of wear on the edge of the TWS line guide. He also does fill the spool 2 or 3 mm lower than me... or even more. I guess I will under fill my Tatula from now on.

I still don't find it very comforting to see the problem after only one season (maybe 12 days of tournament fishing out of each I used the tatulas randomly, since I've got more combos in the boat).

I will come back with pictures after the weekend, depending on my spare time.

I will also write an article on my personal blog on www.abrevis.ro/blog

A complete review of the Tatula Type-R. Right now I'm quite mad... I got them for heavy duty fishing and I want to know I can depend on my reels during tough tournaments - we compete for best 5 pikes, where length is measured. So I don't want to loose any of the over 90 cm pike I might be catching during any given tournament.

I was thinking of the new Morethan PE SV. I guess I'll put it on hold.

[IlliniDawg01]

If you end up buying new guides, get the new Zillion guide instead of the Tatula. It has been tweaked to put less angle on the line.

DaveJ

[mark poulson]

If you end up buying new guides, get the new Zillion guide instead of the Tatula. It has been tweaked to put less angle on the line.

DaveJ

Does Daiwa offer free replacments for grooved parts? It seems like the smart thing to do.

[AndZ]

Thanks for the info. I already contacted Toby, my JDM tackle provider and Daiwa Japan. I just need a solution for the reels. Last night I was thinking to selling them. But they cast so well. Instead, I'll try to minimize losses, order the parts (and wait for the first reports on the new Zillion TWS range to see if the new Morethan PE SV is OK).

I think the only viable solution is NOT over filling the spools with line, like I did last year. On the other hand, I don't like under filling them either. Because I lose distance and ease of casting. Especially with heavy line, when the amount of line on the spools tends to decrease faster than with lighter lines.

Tonight I will check my other Tatula with the magnifying glass, under the light. Would be nice for Daiwa to offer free spare parts for the affected reels. But for people living outside the U.S. or Japan, I don't know what's the policy. Only the shipping charges of sending the reels for servicing and having them returned would equal if not exceed the price of parts. I don't know... I'm waiting for a reply first then I'll make a decision.

I wonder where's the fault: how much on Daiwa' side and how much on users'. If the grooves don't EVER happen on the reels correctly filled with line, then it's my fault, at least in part. Because Daiwa should have tested the prototypes longer before releasing the products on the market.