Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by RWSCHMITZ » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:13 pm

If you would have added the TYPE R drag star to the Crazy Cranker you would have got well over 16-17 lbs of drag with a set of Carbontex Drag Washers that retail for under $10.00 !!!!!!!!!! and if the Carbontex washers were dry, no Cal's grease, maybe not as smooth on the start up but I'm sure you would see 18lbs -maybe 20lbs with a set of Carbontex Drag Washers.
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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by Carlos Carrapiço » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:34 am

jbarton422 wrote:I did some drag testing on a few reels today. All tests were done with a Berkley digital scale and a Crazy Cranker spool with 15 lb. P-line CXX. The reels used were a Crazy Cranker with Carbontex washers with Cal's reel grease and polished metal washers, a stock 50th, a 50th with stock washers cleaned and relubed with Cal's grease and polished metal washers, and a stock Type R. I also took the drag star off the Type R and put it on the stock and modified 50th. The first 3 pulls were negated, recorded the next 5, through out the high and low, and took the average of the remaining 3. Drag pressure over around 12 lbs. resulted in significant line dig causing the drag to shutter. Never did I come to an endpoint when tightening the drag star, just tight enough that if I continued I felt like something might break. Also the last couple of clicks resulted in 1-2 lbs. more drag. I wouldn't get caught up with the actual numbers, but just how they relate to each other. These are just my results, yours may very. I will let you come to your own conclusions. So here it goes.
Crazy Cranker- 13.96 lbs.
stock 50th- 8.375 lbs.
stock 50th w/ Type R drag star- 10.625 lbs.
Modified 50th- 12.42 lbs.
Modified 50th w/ Type R drag star- 15.92 lbs.
Type R- 13.1 lbs.
Comparing between stock reels, I still see a 56% increase of drag pressure between the 50th and Type R :big grin:
The Type R seems too short on drag pressure and this is odd, also the fact that you tighten the drag star can lead to inconsistency in the applied torque form one reel to the other (there are tools to do this type of jobs).
More, you used 15lb test line and managed to achieve 16lb (normally lines break around 80% of indicated strength but you achieve 110%).
One other thing that really affects the measure drag pressure are line digging and also leads to line breaking.
The gear ratios also play an important role. The crazy cranker stock should give 13.2lb so the tune you did only yielded .7lb more.
And the Berkeley digital scale is the least indicated for this kind of use as it samples weight every one or two seconds and you need to pull the line at a steady pace for a few seconds to get an almost good measurement.
From my tests, I have broken several times 20lb Gamma FC with my old Zillion 100SH which only gives 11lb but you mention no line breaking events!!!! :-k

I still believe TT measurement to be more accurate. They have a setup dedicated to this and a long experience and they measure with heavy PE because they experienced line breakage with normal lines.

Going back to the topic, to get the Type-R performance, you would need carbontex washers, Cal's drag grease, polishing gear, time, expertise to do the tune and the famous Type-R drag star. What is the price of all this?
If you had to pay me, this would be a lot more then 100$ for work and materials.
It seems to me that with the Type-R, you are getting the carbon handle for free. :-k
I'm getting two more :big grin:

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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by Carlos Carrapiço » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:42 am

RWSCHMITZ wrote:If you would have added the TYPE R drag star to the Crazy Cranker you would have got well over 16-17 lbs of drag with a set of Carbontex Drag Washers that retail for under $10.00 !!!!!!!!!! and if the Carbontex washers were dry, no Cal's grease, maybe not as smooth on the start up but I'm sure you would see 18lbs -maybe 20lbs with a set of Carbontex Drag Washers.
Abu Revo was released with 24lb of drag pressure but you don't see people trying to fit the Abu washers into other reels. Do you know why?
Maybe you can find a smooth answer for that or one without shuttering.

Drag is a Trinidad: Power, smoothness and consistency. You need all three. If you can go without one then probably you would be doing better with a direct drive reel.

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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by GARRIGA » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:50 am

Carlos Carrapiço wrote:If you had to pay me, this would be a lot more then 100$ for work and materials.
It seems to me that with the Type-R, you are getting the carbon handle for free. :-k
I'm getting two more :big grin:
I couldn't agree more. When I was evaluating the purchase of the R it wasn't even comparing it to the 50th but a Curado 201E7. I contacted a shop that did super tuning, upgraded bearings and drag because I don't have the inclination nor time to take my reel apart and make the upgrades. The biggest selling point for me was the shop owner telling me that all the work on the Curado wouldn't make it smoother then the R. At that point the price difference of an upgrade Curado didn't matter anymore. To me, the upgrading of a 50th to match the out of the box experience of an R is not worth it. Even if the decals fall off. Others may feel differently.

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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by RWSCHMITZ » Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:26 pm

The majority of Bass guys are not going to spend $400.00 for a Zillion R , most have a stock Zillion that they paid $250.00 or so, and for $9.00 they can install a set Carbontex Dag Washers from Smooth Drag and some Cal's grease and 1-2 hours of there time to polish some metal drag washers bright, they can have a stock Zillion that will almost have the same drag performance or better then a $400.00 Zillion R for well under $20.00 and few hours of there time, and if you wanted to order a Zillion R Drag star for 1-2 lbs more drag performance, I bet Daiwa wants some big $$$$ for them, U can and add it your reel if you like or not. For the guys that have no idea how to work on there reels and have MEGA $$$$ to burn, they can buy a R.
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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by GARRIGA » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:15 pm

RWSCHMITZ wrote:The majority of Bass guys are not going to spend $400.00 for a Zillion R , most have a stock Zillion that they paid $250.00 or so, and for $9.00 they can install a set Carbontex Dag Washers from Smooth Drag and some Cal's grease and 1-2 hours of there time to polish some metal drag washers bright, they can have a stock Zillion that will almost have the same drag performance or better then a $400.00 Zillion R for well under $20.00 and few hours of there time, and if you wanted to order a Zillion R Drag star for 1-2 lbs more drag performance, I bet Daiwa wants some big $$$$ for them, U can and add it your reel if you like or not. For the guys that have no idea how to work on there reels and have MEGA $$$$ to burn, they can buy a R.
To each, those two hours has a different cost associated with it. One has to consider what they may do with that time. Some may have more time on their hands and a mute point. Others have little leisure time and perhaps prefer to spend it with their family or actually fishing versus shop time. I have no issue with those that like to tinker with things but for others there are other things in life that capture their interest and carry a larger cost associated with them then just spending $20.

Like I've said before, if you want the most cost effective reel then buy a Curado and this entire discussion is a mute point. Plenty of drag out of the box or one could spend the time and effort to upgrade with Carbontex plus new bearings and have a cheap Type R.

Would help if they wanted to bother learning how to take their own reels apart versus dropping them off at specialize shop that will do all of them for $20 each. To me, $20 buck per reel is a discount compared to a few hours working in each one twice a season. Now, if one so desires to take their reels apart and like the look of red reel and doesn't care for a carbon handle plus willing to change the drags and bearings then they should shop for a used 50th and have fun at it. As for the 1-2 lbs that may or may jot be had by the R star drag, that 10-20% depending where you start. To some it may be worth the $$.

Do understand, to some spending more then $69.99 is burning money and to others it needs to be much higher. I guess it depends on one's point of view. $400 may be beer money compared to what they really burn money on. :)

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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by RWSCHMITZ » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:56 pm

Funny, I thought a big part of T.T. was all about learing how to upgrade your reels yourself ? To me thats what fun, I have the $$$ to have someone tune my reels but I enjoy doing it myself. Right now I'm working on a Z2020 trying to switch gears and doing a tune. Like I said in the post above a lot of guys don't have $400.00 to spent on a R, they have a stock Zillion and for a little $$$ and time they can have a reel that they all ready own perform as good or better then a $400.00 Zillion R.
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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by jbarton422 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:35 pm

Carlos Carrapiço wrote:
Comparing between stock reels, I still see a 56% increase of drag pressure between the 50th and Type R :big grin:
The Type R seems too short on drag pressure and this is odd, also the fact that you tighten the drag star can lead to inconsistency in the applied torque form one reel to the other (there are tools to do this type of jobs).
More, you used 15lb test line and managed to achieve 16lb (normally lines break around 80% of indicated strength but you achieve 110%).
One other thing that really affects the measure drag pressure are line digging and also leads to line breaking.
The gear ratios also play an important role. The crazy cranker stock should give 13.2lb so the tune you did only yielded .7lb more.
And the Berkeley digital scale is the least indicated for this kind of use as it samples weight every one or two seconds and you need to pull the line at a steady pace for a few seconds to get an almost good measurement.
From my tests, I have broken several times 20lb Gamma FC with my old Zillion 100SH which only gives 11lb but you mention no line breaking events!!!! :-k

I still believe TT measurement to be more accurate. They have a setup dedicated to this and a long experience and they measure with heavy PE because they experienced line breakage with normal lines.

Going back to the topic, to get the Type-R performance, you would need carbontex washers, Cal's drag grease, polishing gear, time, expertise to do the tune and the famous Type-R drag star. What is the price of all this?
If you had to pay me, this would be a lot more then 100$ for work and materials.
It seems to me that with the Type-R, you are getting the carbon handle for free. :-k
I'm getting two more :big grin:
The only reason I posted my results was to show that similar if not beter drag pressue could be achieved with the other Zillion models. A simiple polish(30 min. tops) and relube of the STOCK washers in the 50th netted Type R like performance. It seems that most of the "new" features of the Type R are mainly marketing hype. In the end both reels perform well. I bought the Type R, used, because of the color to match a Steez XBD frog rod. Also the reason I used P-line CXX, which has a much higher breaking strenght than rated, instead of braid was to try to avoid line dig. I figured a rounder line with larger diameter would help.
Last edited by jbarton422 on Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by steve1206 » Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:46 pm

Carlos: Welcome to American monofilament--P-Line CXX breaks in the ball park of 130-150%...this is mostly because of its understated label and excessive diameter vs. that rating...I would guess 15 lb. CXX breaks at 21-22lb if I had to throw out a number...but its .016"/.40mm

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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by Buck2thPerch » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:32 pm

jbarton422 wrote:I did some drag testing on a few reels today. All tests were done with a Berkley digital scale and a Crazy Cranker spool with 15 lb. P-line CXX. The reels used were a Crazy Cranker with Carbontex washers with Cal's reel grease and polished metal washers, a stock 50th, a 50th with stock washers cleaned and relubed with Cal's grease and polished metal washers, and a stock Type R. I also took the drag star off the Type R and put it on the stock and modified 50th. The first 3 pulls were negated, recorded the next 5, through out the high and low, and took the average of the remaining 3. Drag pressure over around 12 lbs. resulted in significant line dig causing the drag to shutter. Never did I come to an endpoint when tightening the drag star, just tight enough that if I continued I felt like something might break. Also the last couple of clicks resulted in 1-2 lbs. more drag. I wouldn't get caught up with the actual numbers, but just how they relate to each other. These are just my results, yours may very. I will let you come to your own conclusions. So here it goes.
Crazy Cranker- 13.96 lbs.
stock 50th- 8.375 lbs.
stock 50th w/ Type R drag star- 10.625 lbs.
Modified 50th- 12.42 lbs.
Modified 50th w/ Type R drag star- 15.92 lbs.
Type R- 13.1 lbs.
Nicely done. So it is a combination of differnt refinements on the Type-R that allows for the increased Drag Presure. I was trying to get to this testing you did, but with kids and a nagging wife plus my buddy that I gave the 50th Zillion to, just got back into town, I didn't have time. Also, not to mention, I am also fishing alot. :big grin:

Again nice work.
RWSCHMITZ wrote:The majority of Bass guys are not going to spend $400.00 for a Zillion R , most have a stock Zillion that they paid $250.00 or so, and for $9.00 they can install a set Carbontex Dag Washers from Smooth Drag and some Cal's grease and 1-2 hours of there time to polish some metal drag washers bright, they can have a stock Zillion that will almost have the same drag performance or better then a $400.00 Zillion R for well under $20.00 and few hours of there time, and if you wanted to order a Zillion R Drag star for 1-2 lbs more drag performance, I bet Daiwa wants some big $$$$ for them, U can and add it your reel if you like or not. For the guys that have no idea how to work on there reels and have MEGA $$$$ to burn, they can buy a R.
I have been debating this point from the begining of my initial review of the Type-R vs 50th Zillion(since they are soo much similar) vs Alphas Ito 103 vs Curado 200E7.



So to "FINALIZE", with this, is the proof that will tip people one way (purchase Type-R) or the other (upgrade Zillions to Type-R or better status).
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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by Buck2thPerch » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:43 pm

Oh and yes, I finally used my second Type-R last week for three fishing outings.

Just another note in comparison, Type-R with ABEC9's will cast 1/8oz pretty damn far with alot of thumbing - 10yds - 15yds maybe pushing close to 20yds (Just eyeballing when I was out on the water in my boat). Next up, will be HLC spool in this Type-R with ABEC9's and see if it will cast as good as my Alphas Ito 103 with ABEC9's.
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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by GARRIGA » Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:44 pm

RWSCHMITZ wrote:Funny, I thought a big part of T.T. was all about learing how to upgrade your reels yourself ? To me thats what fun, I have the $$$ to have someone tune my reels but I enjoy doing it myself. Right now I'm working on a Z2020 trying to switch gears and doing a tune. Like I said in the post above a lot of guys don't have $400.00 to spent on a R, they have a stock Zillion and for a little $$$ and time they can have a reel that they all ready own perform as good or better then a $400.00 Zillion R.
Where does it say it's about learning to upgrade one's reels. There sections on rods, lures and so much more then just tuning a reel. Should one learn to make monofilament to improve their line, rod making so they can have the perfect rod or perhaps plastic pouring to make the perfect creature bait. I think to each TT carries it's own value. I think we're now completelynoff topic.

What I've yet to see is one prove that they can take a 50th and provide the same performance as an R regardless what color or handle it comes with. Proven test with lad or similar to lab results and not a Berkley digital scale that may or may not be accurate for such testing. Have you actually taken a 50th or any Zillion and obtained the same breaking strength as an R minus the supposed additional 1-2 because of it's star drag and maintained the same consistent smooth power under load? If you have and posted it then I apologize for forgetting but this thread has gone on forms long. Regardless, I'd still buy an R over a manually suped up 50th. That's just me. Even if I cared tomtake one apart and make the changes myself.

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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by Carlos Carrapiço » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:51 am

GARRIGA wrote:
RWSCHMITZ wrote:Funny, I thought a big part of T.T. was all about learing how to upgrade your reels yourself ? To me thats what fun, I have the $$$ to have someone tune my reels but I enjoy doing it myself. Right now I'm working on a Z2020 trying to switch gears and doing a tune. Like I said in the post above a lot of guys don't have $400.00 to spent on a R, they have a stock Zillion and for a little $$$ and time they can have a reel that they all ready own perform as good or better then a $400.00 Zillion R.
Where does it say it's about learning to upgrade one's reels. There sections on rods, lures and so much more then just tuning a reel. Should one learn to make monofilament to improve their line, rod making so they can have the perfect rod or perhaps plastic pouring to make the perfect creature bait. I think to each TT carries it's own value. I think we're now completelynoff topic.

What I've yet to see is one prove that they can take a 50th and provide the same performance as an R regardless what color or handle it comes with. Proven test with lad or similar to lab results and not a Berkley digital scale that may or may not be accurate for such testing. Have you actually taken a 50th or any Zillion and obtained the same breaking strength as an R minus the supposed additional 1-2 because of it's star drag and maintained the same consistent smooth power under load? If you have and posted it then I apologize for forgetting but this thread has gone on forms long. Regardless, I'd still buy an R over a manually suped up 50th. That's just me. Even if I cared tomtake one apart and make the changes myself.

x2

More, I'm planing to buy 2 Type R to change the gear ratio. One will be a 6.3:1(PE Special gears) and probably will have a 100mm carbon handle and will fish mostly swimbaits. It will be paired with a STOCK Evergreen Heracles HCSC-74X The "Actaeon". The other will have a 4.9:1 gear ratio and will be completed with a HLC spool to fish deep diving cranks. It will probably be matched with a Evergreen Temujin TMJC-711M "Skyscraper". Both rods are already at home as the HLC spool. :big grin:

I realized it was much cheaper to do this way than to go with a 50th or a regular Zillion and do the upgrades not sure I would get the desired performance. :-k

In the 6 of Jully I will start interchanging gears and drags between my PE Special and Type R to see how they perform \:D/. If everything performs as expected, by 15 August, the project should be finished. :big grin:

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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by jbarton422 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:03 am

Carlos, do you like the way the levelwind performs in the PE special. I was thinking about replacing the stock levelwind in my zillions spooled with braid.

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Re: Zillion Type-R. Not worth it.

Post by Carlos Carrapiço » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:46 am

jbarton422 wrote:Carlos, do you like the way the levelwind performs in the PE special. I was thinking about replacing the stock levelwind in my zillions spooled with braid.
Take a look here:http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic. ... 8&start=15

I believe it prevents line digging better than traditional level winds but still not 100% bullet proof. Also this might be influenced by the line you use. I normally use 30 or 50 lb FireLine (not the best but the one available at home until its finished).

Also, it seems that the New PX68, PX68SPR, Daiwa Z, Ryoga, Alphas 105 and maybe the T3 come already with this new level wind.

Let me know if you need more info on this.

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