gears for baitcasters

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mark poulson
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gears for baitcasters

Post by mark poulson » Sun May 17, 2020 2:53 pm

Are the gears for baitcasters cold forged?

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Slazmo
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Re: gears for baitcasters

Post by Slazmo » Mon May 18, 2020 3:33 am

More info...

Aluminium / brass?

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Re: gears for baitcasters

Post by mark poulson » Wed May 20, 2020 2:27 pm

Slazmo wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 3:33 am
More info...

Aluminium / brass?
Both, or either. I'm just wondering if really fine gears can be forged as a final step, or do they need to be ground after forging?

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Re: gears for baitcasters

Post by Slazmo » Wed May 20, 2020 5:00 pm

I'd dare say from the limited / non existant release of company manufacturing video's on / of their products especially gear manufacturing I'd dare say that the limited information provided to their (whoever the manufacturer) gears other than advertising "digi, hyper, machine cut, forged et al" is all well get.

Unless someone has the ability to test tensile strengths of comparative materials and do electron microscope analysis of grain structures etc well never know ultimately. Nor will you get a straight answer from questions asked - they don't know and the compa y won't tell as it's most likely "trade secrets".

There are guys on here that'll be able to answer this simple question much better than myself - just not sure why anyone hasn't piped in? Or are people just concerned with looks alone?

Helical gears like those in baitcasters are relatively easy to manufacture once the maths has been done and machines set up - clockwork gear cutting on YouTube is one to get a grasp of it.

But with tempering and hardening of gears you introduce limits to faults and stressors to ultimate failure - small machines with a lot to be asked of especially with the helical gear cut and fine teeth with increased ratios and smaller micro gears of late.

With aluminium gears the anodised* surface has a limit of strength added - other surface coatings would be better in place - alike a 2 part coating process - individual surface coating for the gear face and another for the inner surfaces - one does one job better than the other.

Brass can* be hardened to a degree - but you can do a fair bit of damage to it at its grain.

I think there is a value of deformation / ability to gears especially past years where they stayed smooth and strong for decade's - whereas now these gears are well yeh questionable.

I've saved / screenshot 118 posts of reel techs exchanging gears just this year alone... 200+ last year...

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Re: gears for baitcasters

Post by mark poulson » Thu May 21, 2020 8:03 am

Slazmo wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:00 pm
I'd dare say from the limited / non existant release of company manufacturing video's on / of their products especially gear manufacturing I'd dare say that the limited information provided to their (whoever the manufacturer) gears other than advertising "digi, hyper, machine cut, forged et al" is all well get.

Unless someone has the ability to test tensile strengths of comparative materials and do electron microscope analysis of grain structures etc well never know ultimately. Nor will you get a straight answer from questions asked - they don't know and the compa y won't tell as it's most likely "trade secrets".

There are guys on here that'll be able to answer this simple question much better than myself - just not sure why anyone hasn't piped in? Or are people just concerned with looks alone?

Helical gears like those in baitcasters are relatively easy to manufacture once the maths has been done and machines set up - clockwork gear cutting on YouTube is one to get a grasp of it.

But with tempering and hardening of gears you introduce limits to faults and stressors to ultimate failure - small machines with a lot to be asked of especially with the helical gear cut and fine teeth with increased ratios and smaller micro gears of late.

With aluminium gears the anodised* surface has a limit of strength added - other surface coatings would be better in place - alike a 2 part coating process - individual surface coating for the gear face and another for the inner surfaces - one does one job better than the other.

Brass can* be hardened to a degree - but you can do a fair bit of damage to it at its grain.

I think there is a value of deformation / ability to gears especially past years where they stayed smooth and strong for decade's - whereas now these gears are well yeh questionable.

I've saved / screenshot 118 posts of reel techs exchanging gears just this year alone... 200+ last year...
Thanks for the detailed reply. I got interested because I read in an article on train wheels that cold forged products are stronger and harder, basically like case hardened cast iron. I looked up cold forged aluminum gears online, and all I found were videos of making some rotary gears, like for the drive shaft side gear in a car's differential. Those are nowhere near as fine as baitcaster gears, so I was just wondering if that process could still be used. I really don't like aluminum gears in my baitcasters anyway, but I was bored and got curious, so I looked it up. Covided again! Hahaha

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Re: gears for baitcasters

Post by doomtrprz71 » Thu May 21, 2020 11:05 am

It amuses me that alot of gears in spinning reels claim cold forged gears that are usually cast zinc. I would think cold forged gears would be cost prohibitive for a baitcasting reel.

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Re: gears for baitcasters

Post by mark poulson » Fri May 22, 2020 4:47 pm

doomtrprz71 wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:05 am
It amuses me that alot of gears in spinning reels claim cold forged gears that are usually cast zinc. I would think cold forged gears would be cost prohibitive for a baitcasting reel.
Can gears that are cold forged have the same precision as machined gears?

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Re: gears for baitcasters

Post by doomtrprz71 » Fri May 22, 2020 8:48 pm

I would say no, most of the "cold forged" gears in spinning reels that are cast zinc aren't as precise plus it would make more sense to cut helical gears for finer teeth. They could use a cold forged alloy but I'm sure something like 7075t6 or 6061t6 would be a lot cheaper and be plenty strong and would be aircraft grade. The actual cold forged aluminum gears in something like a Stella would be cold forged but would have large teeth and the baitcasting gears would have much finer teeth so it would make better sense to machine them like a brass gear.

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Re: gears for baitcasters

Post by Slazmo » Sat May 23, 2020 1:34 am

doomtrprz71 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:48 pm
I would say no, most of the "cold forged" gears in spinning reels that are cast zinc aren't as precise plus it would make more sense to cut helical gears for finer teeth. They could use a cold forged alloy but I'm sure something like 7075t6 or 6061t6 would be a lot cheaper and be plenty strong and would be aircraft grade. The actual cold forged aluminum gears in something like a Stella would be cold forged but would have large teeth and the baitcasting gears would have much finer teeth so it would make better sense to machine them like a brass gear.
With Shimano spinning reels the cold forged main gear that's anodised isn't as fine cut as a Daiwa machine cut Digi gears - but it's pretty certain to say that the CF gears stay smooth over a long time as that anodised surface Paladin* surface took most of the brunt during extended service periods - my little Saros 1000F wore through that pretty quickly but I was putting it through a lot - more than now I would ever...

I'm quiet certain that the Zinc Alloy main gears of cheaper reels aren't CF.

As the OP not sure if Aluminium main gears of BC reels are machined or pressed - I'd dare say machined and then prepared / cryogenic treated to align grain structure somewhat and anodised as a final step... But hey we won't know the process...

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Re: gears for baitcasters

Post by mark poulson » Sat May 23, 2020 9:42 am

Thanks for the replies.
Sounds like it would not be practical for bait casting gears.

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