Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Reels are the hottest topic for TackleTour. Everyone wants to know what the latest and greatest is and how they compare to the old guard. What's the best for light stuff, or what's your suggestion for heavy cover. Do we really need different retrieve ratios? It's all in here.
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Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby Prancing Pony » Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:05 pm

It sounds bonkers but I've heard it from somewhere else and I think it's worth giving a though.

As most of you know, Daiwa's Magforce brake system is controlled by precise spring action. Centrifugal force created by the spool rotation pushes the magnetic inductor against the spring and towards the magnet, so the softer the spring the closer the distance between the inductor and the magnet which means more brake force. For example, reels designed for long-distance casts with heavy lures such as the HLC variants have an extremely stiff spring that barely stretches even under hard casts while finesse baitcasters as well as new SV reels have softer springs to cope with lighter lures. The link below shows just how much rpm is needed to stretch the Zillion's spring, which is pretty stiff in Daiwa standards since the Zillion is a textbook heavy duty reel. (FYI: Magforce Z is for long-distance heavy weight lures and V is for more light and finesse lures)
https://youtu.be/A7duihHaBpI

Our problem occurs when a lefty person casts with a right-handled reel, or a righty person with a left-handled reel. In these two cases the magnetic inductor faces the sky during casts which means the spool's centrifugal force has to push the inductor upward not only against the spring but also the earth's gravity. The gravity will retard the beginning, and hasten the ending of the spring action which causes your brake to engage late and disengage early - imagine if you're driving downhill, where the car's brake has to fight against the gravity. This is shown in the diagram below, with Pic.1 being the normal cast and Pic.2 describing the cast impeded by the gravity(a bit exaggerated for viewers). In short, you'll have less than perfect amount of brake but if you try to compensate for that by dialing up the brake, you will end up with too much brake at that low-end rpm which hampers your distance. The new Shimano FTB system is obviously free from this nuisance but I like the Daiwa's T-Wing system too much!

Of course this is not an issue for those who use right-handle reels(and left-handle for lefties) but I always hold the rod with my strong hand and I know many other people do. So let us share everyone's thoughts and experience on this.
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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby ccass » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:55 pm

I can see where one could make an argument for that...

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby LowRange » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:23 pm

How do you right handed people using left reels even cast? It makes no sense to me. How do you move your hand up from the rod grip into plaming the reel? I'm imaging throwing the rod into the air and catch it palming it at the same time or something. This can't be right. Also, how is the reel getting sideways when casting? I also hear that some of you palm the reel when casting. How is that even possible???

About the mag braking: I don't think centrifugal forces alone are responsible for extending the inductor and that the inductor needs to be in the presence of a magnetic field to aid in the extension of the inductor and particularly with Air Brake spools.

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby Prancing Pony » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:55 am

I've attached the missing picture.

LowRange wrote:How do you right handed people using left reels even cast? It makes no sense to me. How do you move your hand up from the rod grip into plaming the reel? I'm imaging throwing the rod into the air and catch it palming it at the same time or something. This can't be right. Also, how is the reel getting sideways when casting? I also hear that some of you palm the reel when casting. How is that even possible???

About the mag braking: I don't think centrifugal forces alone are responsible for extending the inductor and that the inductor needs to be in the presence of a magnetic field to aid in the extension of the inductor and particularly with Air Brake spools.


You hold the rod in your right hand, cast with the rod in your right hand, and crank the handle which is on the left side of the reel with your left hand. About the sideway thing, I suggest you go watch some Youtube tutorials on baitcaster casting.
And yes, it is the very centrifugal force that pushes the inductor into the magnetic field and you need to know exactly how Daiwa's brake system works to understand this concept because it can be quite confusing, obviously.
Last edited by Prancing Pony on Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby ccass » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:00 am

Prancing Pony wrote:I've attached the missing picture.

LowRange wrote:How do you right handed people using left reels even cast? It makes no sense to me. How do you move your hand up from the rod grip into plaming the reel? I'm imaging throwing the rod into the air and catch it palming it at the same time or something. This can't be right. Also, how is the reel getting sideways when casting? I also hear that some of you palm the reel when casting. How is that even possible???

About the mag braking: I don't think centrifugal forces alone are responsible for extending the inductor and that the inductor needs to be in the presence of a magnetic field to aid in the extension of the inductor and particularly with Air Brake spools.


You hold the rod in your right hand, cast with the rod in your right hand, and crank the handle which is on the left side of the reel with your left hand. About the palming thing, I won't even bother to explain because I don't know what to say.
And yes, it is the very centrifugal force that pushes the inductor into the magnetic field and you need to know exactly how Daiwa's brake system works to understand this concept because it can be quite confusing, obviously.


That is why I prefer Daiwa reels for pitching.

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby LowRange » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:25 am

Prancing Pony wrote:I've attached the missing picture.

LowRange wrote:How do you right handed people using left reels even cast? It makes no sense to me. How do you move your hand up from the rod grip into plaming the reel? I'm imaging throwing the rod into the air and catch it palming it at the same time or something. This can't be right. Also, how is the reel getting sideways when casting? I also hear that some of you palm the reel when casting. How is that even possible???

About the mag braking: I don't think centrifugal forces alone are responsible for extending the inductor and that the inductor needs to be in the presence of a magnetic field to aid in the extension of the inductor and particularly with Air Brake spools.


You hold the rod in your right hand, cast with the rod in your right hand, and crank the handle which is on the left side of the reel with your left hand. About the sideway thing, I suggest you go watch some Youtube tutorials on baitcaster casting.
And yes, it is the very centrifugal force that pushes the inductor into the magnetic field and you need to know exactly how Daiwa's brake system works to understand this concept because it can be quite confusing, obviously.


1) How does a your hand transition from the rod grip to palming the reel? What is the left hand grasping to support the rod/reel combo to allow the right hand to let go of the rod grip and transition into palming the reel. This is what I don't understand about left hand retrieve with right hand casting.

2) Why is the reel getting sideways? I've always held it horizontal with all casting techniques and it would seem that placing it sideways presents no advantage. I notice some guy pitch with the reel sideways but I do not nor do I find it natural.

3) The presence of the magnetic field and it strength does have an impact on extension of the inductor. Take the DIY spools with their Air Brake for example. The perforations in the DIY spools allow you to view the Air Brake mechanism in action when the spool is spun when fitted to the reel and you can clearly see the inductor extend and retract. At high mag dial settings the inductor can be seen extending at lower rpm then with a lower brake setting. Now, this Air Brake so perhaps Magforce Z and V are different.

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby Frosty » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:29 am

LowRange wrote:How do you right handed people using left reels even cast? It makes no sense to me. How do you move your hand up from the rod grip into plaming the reel? I'm imaging throwing the rod into the air and catch it palming it at the same time or something. This can't be right. Also, how is the reel getting sideways when casting? I also hear that some of you palm the reel when casting. How is that even possible???

About the mag braking: I don't think centrifugal forces alone are responsible for extending the inductor and that the inductor needs to be in the presence of a magnetic field to aid in the extension of the inductor and particularly with Air Brake spools.


This makes sense actually. What the op is talking about is when making a casting motion if you're right handed the handle side usually faces slightly up, because on your follow through you would supinate or turn your palm down, like throwing a baseball. Well if a righty using a left handed reel the reel construction is opposite so the inductor side of reel (non-handle side) ends up facing up instead of down, and the inductor has to fight the gravitational forces being applied to it so it can rise up to the magnet.

This is interesting. My initial thought is if doing hard overhand casting just turn the mag up a few notches.

Man we overanalyze everything on TT :lol: :D

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby Frosty » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:33 am

I hope that makes sense.

Outstanding post! Very interesting indeed. I'm not a physicist or an engineer and have no access to the tools one would need to measure gravitational force on the magnet...I doubt this gets solved. But still cool-thanks for posting it.

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby Prancing Pony » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:08 am

LowRange wrote:1) How does a your hand transition from the rod grip to palming the reel? What is the left hand grasping to support the rod/reel combo to allow the right hand to let go of the rod grip and transition into palming the reel. This is what I don't understand about left hand retrieve with right hand casting.

You kinda slide your right hand closer to the reel and also get a bit of support from your left hand holding the reel's handle. It's a natural and effortless motion that involves your both hands just like buttoning your shirt.

LowRange wrote:2) Why is the reel getting sideways? I've always held it horizontal with all casting techniques and it would seem that placing it sideways presents no advantage. I notice some guy pitch with the reel sideways but I do not nor do I find it natural.

You will get the most whipping action out of an overhead cast when your palm faces the ground and the reel sideways. In the same sense, your reel should face upwards when you sidecast. Just try it.

LowRange wrote:3) The presence of the magnetic field and it strength does have an impact on extension of the inductor. Take the DIY spools with their Air Brake for example. The perforations in the DIY spools allow you to view the Air Brake mechanism in action when the spool is spun when fitted to the reel and you can clearly see the inductor extend and retract. At high mag dial settings the inductor can be seen extending at lower rpm then with a lower brake setting. Now, this Air Brake so perhaps Magforce Z and V are different.

The higher the dial, the closer the magnet moves towards the inductor so it can slide deeper into the groove on the magnet. What you saw was most likely the magnet wall sitting closer to the inductor, not the inductor extending earlier towards the magnet.
Last edited by Prancing Pony on Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby Prancing Pony » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:17 am

Frosty wrote:I hope that makes sense.

Outstanding post! Very interesting indeed. I'm not a physicist or an engineer and have no access to the tools one would need to measure gravitational force on the magnet...I doubt this gets solved. But still cool-thanks for posting it.

Not too bad a debut on the forum eh? Though I agree that this will never get solved and probably you won't ever notice it IRL.

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby LowRange » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:46 am

Prancing Pony wrote:
LowRange wrote:1) How does a your hand transition from the rod grip to palming the reel? What is the left hand grasping to support the rod/reel combo to allow the right hand to let go of the rod grip and transition into palming the reel. This is what I don't understand about left hand retrieve with right hand casting.

You kinda slide your right hand closer to the reel and also get a bit of support from your left hand holding the reel's handle. It's a natural and effortless motion that involves your both hands just like buttoning your shirt.

LowRange wrote:2) Why is the reel getting sideways? I've always held it horizontal with all casting techniques and it would seem that placing it sideways presents no advantage. I notice some guy pitch with the reel sideways but I do not nor do I find it natural.

You will get the most whipping action out of an overhead cast when your palm faces the ground and the reel sideways. In the same sense, your reel should face upwards when you sidecast. Just try it.

LowRange wrote:3) The presence of the magnetic field and it strength does have an impact on extension of the inductor. Take the DIY spools with their Air Brake for example. The perforations in the DIY spools allow you to view the Air Brake mechanism in action when the spool is spun when fitted to the reel and you can clearly see the inductor extend and retract. At high mag dial settings the inductor can be seen extending at lower rpm then with a lower brake setting. Now, this Air Brake so perhaps Magforce Z and V are different.

The higher the dial, the closer the magnet moves towards the inductor so it can slide deeper into the groove on the magnet. What you saw was most likely the magnet wall sitting closer to the inductor, not the inductor extending further towards the magnet.


1). Ah I see. Grasping the handle knob to support the hand position change makes sense but I would be weary of movement from the rotation of the handle nob or the handle itself. I think I'll stick to using my dominate hand with it's superior fine motor skills to both cast and make small circles of the hand while retrieving. I find it is very natural to change hands by simply placing the reel into an awaiting left hand while grasping the rod by the same grip I just used to cast. Thanks for explaining the left hand retrieve right hand casting position change.

2). I'll have to give rotating the reel at the end of a cast a try. It appeares so bizarre I had always assume that behavior was the result of improper casting technique. Perhaps it'll have some merits.

3). The magnets do not move closer to the inductor with higher magnetic dial setting on Daiwa reels. What is happening is that the inner and outer magnets position themselves into more of a north to north alignment increasing magnetic field flux at higher dial settings. The induction rotor (inductor) brakes through the Lentz effect and as mag flux increases so does the braking. While I've never been able to observe the extension and retraction of the inductor on a Magfroce Z/V spool when fitted to a reel the Air Brake operation certainly can be observed on the DIY BFS spools. Make no mistake, the inductor does indeed extend at lower RPM the higher the mag dial setting on Air Brake spools. While the extension of the inductor on Daiwa reels is largely centrifugally driven the strength of the magnetic field also plays a roll in its operation. Removing a spool from the reel and fitting it to a dremil tool, while fun to watch, tells us very little about the RPM needed to extend the inductor once fitted to a reel.

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby Prancing Pony » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:59 am

LowRange wrote:I'll have to give rotating the reel at the end of a cast a try. It appeares so bizarre I had always assume that behavior was the result of improper casting technique. Perhaps it'll have some merits.

You don't rotate the reel mid-cast; you cast with the reel facing sideway all the way through and that way you can fully use your wrist. Of course we're talking about overhead cast here and for sidecasts the reel should face the sky throughout your swing.


LowRange wrote:The magnets do not move closer to the inductor with higher magnetic dial setting on Daiwa reels. What is happening is that the inner and outer magnets position themselves into more of a north to north alignment increasing magnetic field flux at higher dial settings. The induction rotor (inductor) brakes through the Lentz effect and as mag flux increases so does the braking. While I've never been able to observe the extension and retraction of the inductor on a Magfroce Z/V spool when fitted to a reel the Air Brake operation certainly can be observed on the DIY BFS spools. Make no mistake, the inductor does indeed extend at lower RPM the higher the mag dial setting on Air Brake spools. While the extension of the inductor on Daiwa reels is largely centrifugally driven the strength of the magnetic field also plays a roll in its operation. Removing a spool from the reel and fitting it to a dremil tool, while fun to watch, tells us very little about the RPM needed to extend the inductor once fitted to a reel.

Maybe what I knew only applies to Magforce 3D and Shimano's FTB which involve moving the magnet for sure. Thanks for enlightening me.

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby LowRange » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:29 am

To get back on topic I have no earthly idea if an inductor facing upwards brakes less than one positioned horizontal or downwards. A rapidly spinning disk fitted to a stick can be more easily moved than the same disk and stick when the disk in not spinning as if the rotation of the disk is turning off gravity. While it isn't anti gravity the angular momentum of the spinning disk has a gyroscopic effect.

I would imagine the inductor on a Daiwa spool is much the same.

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby Prancing Pony » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:59 am

LowRange wrote:To get back on topic I have no earthly idea if an inductor facing upwards brakes less than one positioned horizontal or downwards. A rapidly spinning disk fitted to a stick can be more easily moved than the same disk and stick when the disk in not spinning as if the rotation of the disk is turning off gravity. While it isn't anti gravity the angular momentum of the spinning disk has a gyroscopic effect.

I would imagine the inductor on a Daiwa spool is much the same.

There will be little to no effect during the initial phase with tremendous acceleration but as the spool gradualy slows down and the centrifugal force begin to lose its power, the gravity will kick in and push the inductor downwards.
But yeah, most probably you might not feel it at all.

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Re: Daiwa's Magforce brake impeded by the earth's gravity?

Postby poisonokie » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:46 am

Earth's gravity is so weak compared to the centrifugal force of the spool and especially the electromagnetic force of the magnets that I'm sure the difference, while real, is negligible.
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