The reason for recoils

[cbream]

"Beer thirty at the Fuji office?"

Since I don't drink, have one for me.

Sorry you guys don't see this the way that I do. If a competing vendor came on this forum and said, "Loomis rods suck", all of the Shimano happy person boys would have their g-strings in a wad.

Vendors should do their own testing before using another manufacturers components. Ultimately, it is their name that people will remember if there is a bad experience. However, to come on a forum and make a statement, like this one, not provide anything to prove that this is anything more than a personal opinion and to use a low level keyboard jockey to make this announcement does say something about the leadership at Shimano. That is assuming that Dan has not gone rogue on his employer.

It is also curious that this topic has come up on 2 different sections of this forum and Dan has been absent since then. Hopefully, that means Shimano wants this whole matter to go away and be forgotten. Maybe Fuji agrees that it will be that easy to move on.

[Bantam1]

"The Torzite guides groove."

Dan,

I cannot believe you made this statement. Until you can show some "lab tests" validating this as a fact, I say you are full of it. Shimano and Fuji have had an excellent business relationship for many years. If, and only if, Shimano found this type of flaw with Torzite guides, why not approach Fuji privately, rather than a blind side attack on a public forum? Not to be disrespectful but if such an attack was deemed necessary, why send you into the fire?

Please do not come back here and say your "lab tests" are somehow corporate secrets and customers do not have any need to know. If that turns out to be the case, don't bother.

To be clear, I have no "lab tests", only just about a year, 200 days fishing with Torzite guides in fresh and saltwater without the first hint of a problem.

I am going off of information provided to me by our QC team. I am aware that my comments ruffled some feathers at Fuji and that was not the intent. In hindsight I should have not commented, but people on here know I am honest. I personally like Fuji components and we (Shimano) still use their components and will do so in the future. I am not going to rescind the info that I posted. We are not given specific details on all the tests that they perform. The testing happened in Japan. I am in the US. I can only go off the info provided to us by our QC team. This is why we test everything. Any smart company will perform their own tests on products made by another vendor. You cannot go off of their claims of greatness. Unfortunately I do not have the exact testing methods that were performed. I know some of the test methods that they perform such as running line over the guide with a weight hanging from it. This tests the friction of the guide and the heat dissipation. In this test the SIC and Alconite guides performed very, very well.

While I am sure you have not had any issues, and in your tests they performed well. It is possible that for the average person not to have any issues. I was not trying to change the publics opinion, I was simply pointing out what was found in the initial testing. Maybe it was a bad set, maybe the test they performed was on the extreme side of what the guides will see. I would assume that our QC engineers shared this information with Fuji in Japan.

[cbream]

Dan,

Thank you for your response and comments. Good to know what info you received and from where. Given those circumstances, everything was at least second hand and might not convey all of the details or the whole story. I hope your assumption is correct in that Shimano would discuss with Fuji any concerns that the testing did or did not reveal. The fact that this testing you refer to occurred in Japan could indicate that an early prototype was used and might explain this matter. QC is always a key element and sometimes takes a manufacturing company a little time to dial in.

The Torzite guides I have used are on 6 rods and were purchased from USA distributors, who usually are at the back of the line, even according to Anglers Resource. I have no testing, other than real life usage. I did view the guide rings under high magnification and they appeared to be a smoother finish as compared to SIC or Alconite rings.

You made a further comment about Recoil guides and a weight advantage over Fuji micro guides. I have weighed more guides than I care to admit with a laboratory scale and we can certainly compare numbers. The wraps and finish on many guides would weigh more than the guide alone. Needless to say, If Shimano engineers stand by their contention, I will again be the first to say they are full of it.

[Aaronb]

Dan,

Thank you for your response and comments. Good to know what info you received and from where. Given those circumstances, everything was at least second hand and might not convey all of the details or the whole story. I hope your assumption is correct in that Shimano would discuss with Fuji any concerns that the testing did or did not reveal. The fact that this testing you refer to occurred in Japan could indicate that an early prototype was used and might explain this matter. QC is always a key element and sometimes takes a manufacturing company a little time to dial in.

The Torzite guides I have used are on 6 rods and were purchased from USA distributors, who usually are at the back of the line, even according to Anglers Resource. I have no testing, other than real life usage. I did view the guide rings under high magnification and they appeared to be a smoother finish as compared to SIC or Alconite rings.

You made a further comment about Recoil guides and a weight advantage over Fuji micro guides. I have weighed more guides than I care to admit with a laboratory scale and we can certainly compare numbers. The wraps and finish on many guides would weigh more than the guide alone. Needless to say, If Shimano engineers stand by their contention, I will again be the first to say they are full of it.

You sound like someone insulted your mom. I can't imagine being that emotionally invested in whether torzite guides groove or not.

I have a torzite tip top on a rod I repaired. The tip broke on it. I have had zero issues with grooving. I can't say that no one else has though. It would be nice to have some pictures or something though.

[Bantam1]

I didn't compare to micro guides. The comment I made about the REC guides was against the standard guide sizes in both Fuji SIC and Ti SIC guides of similar sizes. G.Loomis checked the weights and decided on the hybrid configuration for the NRX rods.

[cbream]

Dan,

Glad you cleared that up. I am confused by your description of "standard guide sizes". Loomis may use some version of standardization. Custom rod builders use what we or the customer feels is best. My opinion of Recoils is not important but there is no situation where I could envision that an advantage would be gained with Recoils. Well, maybe one, price. Since everything Loomis produces must involve a cost/price relationship, the resulting profit margin would be strong incentive for that decision.

AB,

Happy to report, no one insulted my Mom.

[Aaronb]

Happy to report, no one insulted my Mom.

[cbream]

Some "lab tests" from the other side of the aisle and courtesy of another forum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSTFnDH2t6Y&app=desktop

[angry john]

Wish recoils were part of any of these tests.