The reason for recoils

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angry john
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The reason for recoils

Post by angry john » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:51 pm

It is my understanding that recoils are very light and found a home on fly rods long ago for there weight reduction. Now I start to see them on high end rods and I really dont understand. In applications where soft lines like mono or fly line are used it makes perfect sense to use the lightest guide to get the job done. There are tons of discussions on hardness and correct insert for the job. Are recoils used on the high end rods with no other consideration or is the insert argument completely invalid?

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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by trent_s » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:59 pm

You've opened Pandora's box there pal. Everyone has an opinion on these, and it's a love/hate thing. I personally love them, and put them on all my custom's I have built. The grooving issue is nonsense in my opinion, if you regularly clean your guides, and don't fish with braid in a swamp. Also just like in fly rods and the new NRX's, if you replace the first two or three stripper guides with SiC or any other quality ring I believe it to be impossible to groove the remaining Recoils, as those guides take the brunt of the pressure during hard casts and fighting. I own many old BCR's, and put that modified guide train on all my customs since 2010, and I've never seen grooving. And I fish a lot!!

The main reason for them, in my humble opinion is the added sensitivity. When you're bottom contact fishing with a stiff fluorocarbon and the line bumps into your Recoils on a fish strike you would have to be dead to miss it.

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angry john
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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by angry john » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:22 pm

So your saying that it is better to have recoils than standard or micro's for bite detection. Do the have a higher contact surface?

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trent_s
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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by trent_s » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:37 pm

angry john wrote:So your saying that it is better to have recoils than standard or micro's for bite detection. Do the have a higher contact surface?
Being that they are metallic, springy, and that they're is no dense ring material to act as an insulator; they just allow the vibration to transmit more easily to the blank.

As far as which is better, I'm not making that call for anyone :lol: In my humble opinion, and for my style of fishing they suit me better, as I mainly throw jigs, tubes/senkos, hard jerkbaits (rarely). So for my purposes they work better, and in my opinion the hybrid guide train works well for about anything. The only rod I would prefer to have another set up on would be a crank bait or spinnerbait rod. And like I said I don't throw either of those enough to justify having rods designed for those techniques, but in true Tackle Tour tradition I do, and they're way too expensive :evil22:

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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by Hogsticker2 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:50 pm

Interesting. I never thought of the idea that recoils may add another level of sensitivity to the build. Food or thought.

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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by tywithay » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:39 pm

I have noticed the "spring" effect from the line rubbing the guides. I think it adds an extra level of sensitivity, but I don't know to what degree. I still prefer the silky feel of SiC guides over the noisy feel of recoils, it's just a different sensation. I think the lightweight claims are valid, but mostly overblown, as the difference between a recoil and a fuji titanium micro guide are minimal. They certainly have a slight edge in durability, and are much more corrosion resistant than a stainless guide. I think the price they charge for recoils is nearly a felony offense.

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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by Mattman » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:43 pm

trent_s wrote: You've opened Pandora's box there pal.
Isn't that the truth?

I personally hate them. And won't waste everyone's time on why. But I will say that no matter what anyone else says, the very first build I did with them wound up with grooves in the guides. I quit using them immediately after that.


angry john wrote: Are recoils used on the high end rods with no other consideration or is the insert argument completely invalid?
Reduced warranty claims is the main reason that I've been told.


tywithay wrote: I think the lightweight claims are valid, but mostly overblown, as the difference between a recoil and a fuji titanium micro guide are minimal.
Correct. I've actually reguided a rod from Recoils to TiSiC and reduced the weight of the overall guide package. In many sizes, TiSiC's are a lighter guide.




I'll also say that I disagree with the claims of added sensitivity due to being soft and springy. Just like with grip materials and seat materials, I would say that being hard and rigid will transmit vibration much better than a shock absorber would. Which is what shock absorbers do, absorb shock.

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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by IlliniDawg01 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:13 pm

I've had similar experiences.

Pros:
very light weight (maybe only Ti Torzite micros would be less)
sensitive
super durable when wrapped properly (assuming you get a good set)

Cons:
crazy expensive
a pain to wrap (if you are a builder)
don't handle leader knots well (arguably among the worst)
can groove if you use thin line and high vibration resistance baits
slack braid wraps on them very easily, quite annoying

They are pretty much perfect for bottom contact travel rods and fly rods, but you are compromising in some way for any other use.

I guess you could also put them on a MH Ugly Stik and use the rod to clear brush to get to some otherwise unaccessable bank fishing spots. :)

DaveJ
Last edited by IlliniDawg01 on Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by JBcrankaddict » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:46 pm

The only rods I own with Recoils are NRX rods and I have no issues with them other than they break easily. I fish a lot if reaction baits on my MBR rods in some muddy water ( my white braid turns brown from the dirt) and no grooves. I think the hybrid guide system keeps most of the tension off these guides. They are pretty sensitive but not much more than any other guides. Replaced all the recoils with Torzite on my 842 when I snapped 4 of them off and the sensitivity feels the same. They are not as durable as the company claims.

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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by dragon1 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:41 am

Ahem....again, per Pandora's box...

If the REC survives being stepped on, twisted, abused, hit against the gunwale...what of your P R E C I O U S that the RECs are adhered/connected to??? :roll:

See page 5 from TT member Ong Jim, 6lb CXX on clear water jack up RECs as well: http://forums.tackletour.com/viewtopic. ... il#p486145

You paid what for these RECs? ](*,) :doh: ;)

The "slapping" of the line (especially a fluoro) on the RECs on a slack line/plastics/jig bite my enhance one's "feel" and perception, however on tight line presentations it would be a draw vs a good smaller sized/lower sitting quality frame + ceramic. Personally, I would rather have SS Alconites in mid-micros format than an REC system, unless I was catfishing/beerfishing with 20lb mono pulling an all-nighter...well then, the "stepping on my guides thang" might prove useful. :P

As noted, it is a preference thing...but I believe there is a reason why MOST JDM designed rods don't use them. ShimLoomis, haven't a clue why on their NRXs (honestly keeps me from buying one).

Thanks again for opening the BOX! :lol:

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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by Bantam1 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:49 am

The Torzite guides groove. We found that while performing tests in the lab and on the water. I'm pretty sure we will not offer these guides on Shimano or G.Loomis rods. Yes they are light, but the material is not as hard as the SIC or even Alconite. We had high hopes for these guides. It was disappointing to find out they grooved so badly.

REC Recoil guides can groove. The material is not consistent in terms of hardness. Typically it happens with fluorocarbon lines and not braided line. I have had it happen to a few of my personal rods. It started a lot of research and meetings on our end with REC. REC tightened up their QC to ensure the material meets the correct hardness spec.

G.Loomis went to them for a few reasons. The warranty replacement was supposed to go down. The guides were supposed to be more durable and more sensitive.

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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by dragon1 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:58 am

Bantam1 wrote:The Torzite guides groove. We found that while performing tests in the lab and on the water. I'm pretty sure we will not offer these guides on Shimano or G.Loomis rods. Yes they are light, but the material is not as hard as the SIC or even Alconite. We had high hopes for these guides. It was disappointing to find out they grooved so badly.

REC Recoil guides can groove. The material is not consistent in terms of hardness. Typically it happens with fluorocarbon lines and not braided line. I have had it happen to a few of my personal rods. It started a lot of research and meetings on our end with REC. REC tightened up their QC to ensure the material meets the correct hardness spec.

G.Loomis went to them for a few reasons. The warranty replacement was supposed to go down. The guides were supposed to be more durable and more sensitive.
Thanks Bantam1...you are a superb rep for Shimano/G.Loomis as always. And yes, most of the TT members had "ass u me d" that durability/warranty/sensitivity were key elements as to why the RECs were chosen. I just personally wonder "why" on the NRX (maybe aside sensitivity for certain techs where the RECs "might" enhance sensitivity)?

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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by Bantam1 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:44 am

On the NRX they wanted to use the lightest available guide train at the time. They weighed every guide and the Hybrid Ti-SIC and REC guide mix was the lightest they could use. The byproduct was reduced noise from the guide train by using Ti-SIC guides for the stripper +2. It didn't start out as a requirement, it just worked out that way. It also helped further balance the rods and give them a different feel.

If the stripper + 1 was lighter they would have went that route. I voted to use all Ti-SIC guides...obviously they didn't listen to me on that one :lol: What I have learned is that the more rigid you can make the guide frame, the more sensitive it will be.

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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by JBcrankaddict » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:13 am

Bantam1 wrote:The Torzite guides groove. We found that while performing tests in the lab and on the water. I'm pretty sure we will not offer these guides on Shimano or G.Loomis rods. Yes they are light, but the material is not as hard as the SIC or even Alconite. We had high hopes for these guides. It was disappointing to find out they grooved so badly.

REC Recoil guides can groove. The material is not consistent in terms of hardness. Typically it happens with fluorocarbon lines and not braided line. I have had it happen to a few of my personal rods. It started a lot of research and meetings on our end with REC. REC tightened up their QC to ensure the material meets the correct hardness spec.

G.Loomis went to them for a few reasons. The warranty replacement was supposed to go down. The guides were supposed to be more durable and more sensitive.
This is very interesting information, thanks for providing it. I have a few months on my Torzites so far and haven't noticed anything yet but will report back on here if anything shows up.

This is the first time I have ever broken a guide on any rod I have ever owned an still have no idea how it happened. And 4 at the same time? I do know it was something I did but don't know what. Haven't had any problems with the rest of my NRX rods though. They do cause some nasty tip wrap with braid to.
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Re: The reason for recoils

Post by Bantam1 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:19 am

I have never seen 4 fail at the same time without some sort of non fishing related problem. Especially in the way you have pictured. I will pass this along to my buddy at Loomis to see what he has to say.

*Update*

He thinks there was a manufacturing issue resulting in the failure. Typically what causes them to fail like that is heat. As with any Titanium Nickel alloy, heat will make it fail. Repeated bending of the material creates heat and will lead to the material breaking. So if the guide was flexing repeatedly it could fail. I think it is highly unlikely that 4 would fail at the same time due to excess flexing.
Last edited by Bantam1 on Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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