Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

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GAMEOVER
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Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby GAMEOVER » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:07 pm

I read/mentioned this in another thread and will just quote it so I dont have to type it.



1)Why have we in the US been getting hosed by having to get "lesser" quality/performing reels than those same models available in Japan? I mean we have some die hard enthusiast anglers in the US and expecially on this forum. This forum is home to so many people who buy your reels and even rods imported because they are better quality. So with all that said can we ever expect to see the same quality here in America? Hate to bring up Daiwa but they finally braught some Japanese quality stuff to America in the Steez reels and rods, we'd love to see the same from Shimano.

2) I only will use and buy left hand reels. I've always wondered why you guys are the only company to give us lefty caster users trouble? ;)


Thanks for joining and welcome to TT.

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby mrgadget » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:37 pm

G.O. I think Dan already answered you first question here:

Bantam1 wrote:I'll let you guys know something about the new reels. We actually have been providing the input for what we need here. The Chronarch B, The Core, all new Spinning for example is mostly our input. We provide them with the features we need, we select the frame designs from a series of prototype designs and then Japan then adapts the reels to their market. The SIC products are not better than the reels here. Yes they have some different features depending on the model.

For the most part the materials used for the gearing is not as strong as the US version reels. Our reels are stronger due to larger fish, heavier lines and the average fisherman here fishes more aggressively than in Japan.

I spent many years in our Reel Repair department and I have repaired many SIC model reels. Gears were the number one thing that needed replacement. I have seen bent spools in Jiggers and all sorts of weird problems that we never see with the US versions.

I know there are a lot of enthusiasts on this board and everyone wants something different. Many have fallen into the urban legends about the Japanese products being better than ours too. Trust me they are not better. They do not come with "better" bearings either. For those not in the know the Japanese model reels are not covered under the US warranty and we do not stock parts for these reels. Some parts will interchange (mostly on casting reels) and some do not. Parts can also be hard to obtain. We maintain parts for a reel 5-7 years after it has been discontinued. The Japanese models parts are discontinued once the reel is.

I know this will not change anything but at least you guys now know the truth. I just hate to see anyone end up with a reel that they can't get parts for later all to save $20 or because they wanted a different colored version of the reel.


And your second question here:

Bantam1 wrote:[The left handed reels make up a small portion of the entire reel market. Due to the costs of development, tooling and everything else that is associated with creating a new reel, the return simply cannot make it worth the investment on certain models. I am not saying that we (Shimano) are not just forgetting about you left handed anglers in any way.

The left handed market is growing so expect to see more coming in the future. For now the Curado 301DSV will just have to do ;)

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby iangler » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:47 pm

First of all, anyone who's a real shimano enthusiast knows that first response is false. But since the enthusiast market has grown that will hopefully change now (with the Core). I'm looking forward to what you guys bring with the Core line.

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby GAMEOVER » Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:45 pm

Thanks for that post referance gadget.

I agree with IA. Shimano reels have most of the same stuff material wise yet come out with better reels over all in Japan. Lets just take the reel equation away if you guys dont think Japan is getting way better quality then us. Look at your Scorpion rods, those rods are amazing.. I dont know how many people on here own them but I know a few do. I know you guys are coming out with a new set of rods but how on earth could Shimanos Crucial (which is a solid rod dont get me wrong) compete with the Scorpion, Akrab, and Shaula rods? The quality difference is deffinatly there. Shimano USA cant get accurate numbers on what we want by your USA marketing dept. How can you guys possibly know just how many of us are importing your finer offerings? Im not trying to jump on your case so I hope you dont take me the wrong way. Im just one of many people who would like to see us have the same if not better then whats in Japan.

Ill wait for your response, thanks.

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby Scot » Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:09 am

Forgive me but....if Shimano,Daiwa, etc were to make all models available to all of their markets ummmmm....wouldn't the "enthusiast" market disappear :?

What would poor Cal do with his time instead of ruling the roost in the enthusiast section....poor guy would be moping around the streets kicking a can with his head down.

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby GAMEOVER » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:07 am

Scot wrote:Forgive me but....if Shimano,Daiwa, etc were to make all models available to all of their markets ummmmm....wouldn't the "enthusiast" market disappear :?

What would poor Cal do with his time instead of ruling the roost in the enthusiast section....poor guy would be moping around the streets kicking a can with his head down.


:lol: Good point.

The enthusiast market wouldnt disappear just because Shimano competed with Daiwa and braught their JDM offerings here. There's too many JDM companys with products we cant get our hands on state side for that market to just disappear.

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby Bantam1 » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:09 am

OK I knew this was coming...

First of all the reels are built on the same line by the same workers with the same tooling. Where the lack of quality that comes into the US version reels is something I don't see.

I have already stated why there is a lack of left handed reels in our market. The average US anglers reels a conventional reel with their right hand. Certain areas (Northwest and northern CA) like to be different.

The Scorpion/Shaula rods are very expensive and we are not looking at that rod market at this time. As most of you know Loomis is a part of us and they will offer the high end rods. Competing against ourselves is pointless.

If we did bring all the SIC models here then where would you go to buy the different colored reels?

Come down to So-Cal and I'll show you how well the US model reels perform. I bet my Calais 100A will smoke anything in your arsenal ;)

*These are my words and not those of Shimano*

To be blunt you guys are beating a dead horse. The SIC reels will NEVER come to the US. The rods will also NEVER come to the US. If you still believe that the SIC products are better quality then I don't know what to tell you. I work for Shimano and I have met the engineers, I have repaired reels, fished with everything and seen the product development in action. Why would you not trust what I have to say? Oh that's right EVERYONE is an expert on the internet :roll: Trust me when I say our products are the same if not better. Yes some of the models come with oiled bearing instead of greased bearings. Other than that our reels are built for our market. Not everyone that buys a low profile baitcast reels fishes for largemouth bass. We have to take all of this into consideration when bringing in products to our market.

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby mhood » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:42 am

Bantam1 wrote:Why would you not trust what I have to say? Oh that's right EVERYONE is an expert on the internet :roll: Trust me when I say our products are the same if not better.


A Sustain is the same if not better than a TwinPower? The Chronarch Mg50 is the same if not better than a Scorpion Mg 1000 (despite 4x4SVS)? The Calcutta 50 TE GT is the same if not better than a Conquest 50? What is the USDM equivalent to a Conquest 50S?

I'm sure no expert but I do know many JDM reels find their way into the USDM. I'm so much not an expert, I don't even know what SIC stands for...unless it is in brackets following your quote. :D
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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby Scot » Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:48 am

mhood wrote:
Bantam1 wrote:Why would you not trust what I have to say? Oh that's right EVERYONE is an expert on the internet :roll: Trust me when I say our products are the same if not better.


A Sustain is the same if not better than a TwinPower? The Chronarch Mg50 is the same if not better than a Scorpion Mg 1000 (despite 4x4SVS)? The Calcutta 50 TE GT is the same if not better than a Conquest 50? What is the USDM equivalent to a Conquest 50S?

I'm sure no expert but I do know many JDM reels find their way into the USDM. I'm so much not an expert, I don't even know what SIC stands for. :D


To be fair...I think we first need to define "better" My TE51 will not even come close to the pitching ability of my 51S...therefore for my style of fishing...the 51S is MUCH "better" I would trust my 51TE chasing Rockfish FAR sooner than I would my 51S...so...again..what is "better"

The drilled side plate vs. the solid side plate...matter of opinion.

The shape of the dragstar on the JDM is much lower profile and a much easier shape with its horizontal thumb surface in comparison to the larger vertical surface on the TE....I find it (with my average sized hands) easier to adjust the cast control on my JDM's MUCH easier than negotiating around the TE's d-star....what's "better"?....I could go on and on and no offense Bantam but I really don't think that it requires expertise to determine that some things are a little nicer and as you had stated in another thread...everybody is different and has different requirements/opinions/preferences. Your reels are designed FOR THE MASSES wheras you are now hearing from INDIVIDUALS. I defended the JDM/US market seperation and we all appreciate you being here but quite frankly...working for Shimano simply does not automatically qualify you as "expert" in all things mechanical. I also don't think it is fair for folks to approach you in a confrontational way where you end up having to defend yourself or the administrative decisions of the bosses at Shimano. If you are going to simply post that we are all feeble minded and tell us to trust the almighty "expert" because he "says so"....I for one think this will all be a waste of time and nothing more than a commercialized endeavor which we'd all be disappointed in.

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby GAMEOVER » Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:05 pm

Bantam1 wrote:OK I knew this was coming...

First of all the reels are built on the same line by the same workers with the same tooling. Where the lack of quality that comes into the US version reels is something I don't see.

I have already stated why there is a lack of left handed reels in our market. The average US anglers reels a conventional reel with their right hand. Certain areas (Northwest and northern CA) like to be different.
Its not just Cali, its out here in the midwest and all over the country to. I simply will not buy a right hand baitcaster because I am right handed, cast with my strong arm, and reel in with my left. Old schoolers were forced to use what really should be called a left hand retrieve long ago so they can adapt but for young guns like me we just simply refuse to. Some of your guys products interest me but im very picky as are many and if the exact reel I want dont come in a lefty im getting an alternative from say Daiwa that does. There's no possible way you guys can comprehend completely how much business you have and will continue to lose due to this. Some Daiwas I buy because thats what I want but I have baught a Daiwa due to a lack of a left hand retrieve on models you guys offer when they first come out. You know the market is there, wether you think its small is irrelevant because its still there. How can you possibly lose money? Once you guys get the left production line running you simply just make less "lefty" reels and supply them by a more on demand basis instead of mass production like your rightys. Just a thought.

The Scorpion/Shaula rods are very expensive and we are not looking at that rod market at this time. As most of you know Loomis is a part of us and they will offer the high end rods. Competing against ourselves is pointless.
Before I post a response to this paragraph it is necessary I say this to you GLoomis freaks- I know GLoomis are great rods. GLX rods are some of the finest performing sticks on the market, I know. Ive owned them so dont take what im about to say in a bad way. Now to the point- GLoomis doesnt appeal to me any more. The performance is great yes, but so much more makes a rod to me. I sold off more then a couple GLX sticks and an IMX stick to make room for new JDM rods im buying one by one. I look at the complete package. Now if you guys wont bring your JDM marketed rods I mentioned you have nothing to compete with Daiwas Steez rods to us enthusiast anglers when talking about the US Market only. If the market wasnt there Daiwa wouldnt have braught those rods here. Daiwa did what im sort of doing/saying to you now. They listened to their customers and saw they wanted the Type R tuneing is a flagship reel so what did they do when their customers asked that? They made the Steez reel with the Type R tuneing. We wanted it also to be light, what did they do? They made it come in at 5.5 ozs. We wanted enthusiast quality sticks, what did they do? They released their Steez line up of rods that can come in at 500 dollars (give or take depending on model). They only released a couple Steez sticks to us. Do you still think the market isnt there? Daiwas releasing even more Steez models to us because they know the markets there and they're selling like hot cakes.

If we did bring all the SIC models here then where would you go to buy the different colored reels?
We'd just import them like we already do now. :lol: ;) . And, if you guys did bring the reels to wed buy them where ever you guys sold them at. When your talking about selling to this enthusiast market you must know we will go to any length to get them, many of us already have stuff imported every month! An idea I could give you is to release a model in the US with its standard color and if you are willing to give us that color option/special tuning (what ever you would give us in a product) you could make it a special order type deal through your authorized Shimano retailers. Dont worry about advertising them too much us enthusiasts stay on top of stuff every single day just waiting to buy 1, 2, or 10 reels like these at a time. Here's some more food for thought.. many, many, people think well these guys are wealthy well off people buying this stuff and were catering to the rich mostly. This can be and probably is the case but only partially. I am an average income American (if that) and I still strive for the absolute finest in quality. I buy things slow and let them build up over the years instead of buying alot. I (and this same enthusiast market) prefer extreme quality like these products were talking about over your regular stuff any day. For the rest of my life I will be fishing (im 24) and for the rest of my life this is how I will buy all of my tackle atleast 90% of the time. Bantam, think of this to. Im sure you know of Megabass, correct? Well they came and opened up shop in America with this same quality rod and reel offerings years ago. If there wasnt the market in America they wouldnt still be here and growing strong. Another example is just baits, look what Lucky Craft did when they came to America. Look at how big the market is for those baits. These baits dont interest us enthusiasts like they do the average angler. We still love their baits but get our better JDM baits imported still. Trust me, when the average angler buys these baits and they seen a beautiful state-of-the-art Shimano Scorpion rod just calling their name out loud from all the "normal" every day rods they're going to want to buy them. Buy them just like they're buying the Steez. Form must always follow function though but with a company like Shimano I (and im sure all of us) have no worrys about that what-so-ever.

Come down to So-Cal and I'll show you how well the US model reels perform. I bet my Calais 100A will smoke anything in your arsenal ;)
:lol: :clap: I like you. Ive used that reel, its a nice quality reel but it just didnt interest me enough to buy it. Im not a pro-product type of a guy so I dont want you thinking that. Im pro-performance, ill buy any products as long as it meets and performs to my standards ;) . Id put my Steez 103HL against it, its 3ozs lighter and is the finest performing mainstream market reel I own:D . You know what product of Shimanos I went crazy for? Your Chronarch 51MG! This is one of the best reels you guys have ever produced and remains a favorite of mine til this day. I have to pick up another one because I sold it quite awhile ago (which I regret).

To be blunt you guys are beating a dead horse. The SIC reels will NEVER come to the US. The rods will also NEVER come to the US. If you still believe that the SIC products are better quality then I don't know what to tell you. I work for Shimano and I have met the engineers, I have repaired reels, fished with everything and seen the product development in action. Why would you not trust what I have to say? Oh that's right EVERYONE is an expert on the internet :roll: Trust me when I say our products are the same if not better. Yes some of the models come with oiled bearing instead of greased bearings. Other than that our reels are built for our market. Not everyone that buys a low profile baitcast reels fishes for largemouth bass. We have to take all of this into consideration when bringing in products to our market.
Oh comon now.. we are enthusiasts. We will buy what we feel is the best on the market. You need to have an open mind if you plan to really give the competition more trouble. This very paragraph of yours saying how we'll never see the rods or reels is just another reason why I dont buy as much Shimano as I do Daiwa and other products although I favor no one company only products from many companys. Your right dont listen to us(the customer), were beating a dead horse, im only one consumer that shares the same opinions of many so I guess were not that important. This is exactly what a lot of us really dislike about Shimano. You dont listen to your customers. You hear them, hearing and listening is two completely different things. You think you know it all and that your better then me (your customer) and your not period. By that last statement I mean you act like you know what I and a lot of us want but you dont. Shimano has trouble just putting SIC guides on there American rods. You dont know everything and if you dont care to listen to us customers demands maybe Shimano needs someone else who does. Your products are also not better then a lot of other companies offerings. Some of your reels are for me and in my opinion. But your guys US marketed sticks deffinatly are not. There's way more sensitive, more balanced, better handleing, sticks with looks to kill that blow your guys rods here away. Your Crucial line up right now is considered by a lot of us as beater sticks, meaning sticks that are decent that we use and not care about what happens to. Good Luck, Shimano will need it if they dont listen to their customers. . . . :roll:. Dont take this disrespectfully either as I meant nothing disrespectful in anything I said, but I do feel you went a little too far with your last paragraph and to be honest its stuff like that thats pushing not only me, but others as well away from Shimano products. I dont care that you know the engineers and that you know what goes into Shimano products I care about real world results and buy what gives me the best, as do most of us. A lot of the products you use are Shimano, you couldnt possibly have used as much as some of us have on here in terms of both US market sticks and JDM marketed.So many of us must be so stupid wasteing our time and money buying Shimano Japan products, paying for shipping, getting them imported just to have a lesser quality product then we can pick up at any Bass Pro Shops etc. The Japanese must not know what their buying as anglers either since they settle for a lesser Shimano product in Japan and dont import our US offered Shimano products. According to you, this last statement would be correct. Shimano America wont be seeing my business as a consumer as much as Shimano Japan will until they shape it up. Since you said "NEVER", I guess Shimano America will never get any money from me. But again what do I know im just a customer. [-XX

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby iangler » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:17 pm

Bantam1 wrote:First of all the reels are built on the same line by the same workers with the same tooling. Where the lack of quality that comes into the US version reels is something I don't see.


I'm not talking about who makes them, or the quality of the parts, I am talking about the overal quality of the reel, such as features that end up in them.
ONE example, the US version of the Chronarch B does not have a clicking mechanical brake knob, the JDM version of the Metanium XT does. The Metanium XT has a harder chip resistant finish as well. The Chronarch B finish scratches very easily. I sure hope the Core doesn't use the same finish, since it looks like it does! *crossing fingers*

Bantam1 wrote:Why would you not trust what I have to say? Oh that's right EVERYONE is an expert on the internet.


Look at what I wrote above. I understand you are here to help, but please don't assume I (we) haven't done our own research as well. A lot of what these guys are saying are based on experience and not internet info.

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby Johnny A » Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:33 pm

Hi, Bantam1, first off, thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to provide insights and answer questions to this sometime rowdy membership. My choice in reels would be one of your primary competitors and I would hope they would institute a similar outreach policy to a forum such as this.
With that being said, these aren't the rants of malcontents you are reading here but the well thought out questions, concerns and complaints of American fishing's top 1% of 1%. Not the tournament anglers but people who take fishing very seriously and pay for that out of their own pockets. Clicking drag-stars and brake adjustments, high-performance bearings, bearings instead of bushings where applicable and so forth.
These are your "paying to be" field testers and quite honestly folks who would show you how to squeeze out that next plateau of performance out of your products. Many of us pay good amounts of money without benefit of warranty and risk of product breakdown. I find it a bit condescending of you to imply we don't know what we are talking about or lack the ability to rate one reel or rod over another.
I did a bit of time repairing reels. I did a bit of work modding out my own tackle. I have worked in tackle departments. I have spent a lot of time on the water and more than a dollar or two getting what I consider the best available tackle for that dollar. The upgrades being done by people on this board aren't necessarily just for making it pretty. There are tangible results being achieved by the people here.
You dismiss the comments and questions of the folks here at your own peril. You may actually want to recommend to your company to make some of this tackle available over here in the States, perhaps under an Elite Series of some sort.
I have never held a Shimano Final Dimension model rod in my hand but I'm sure I would probably prefer to fish it over a Crucial series rod. I have held the Calcutta Conquest 50 and 100 and prefer either of them over the Calcutta 150.
Thanks for you time.
J

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby ShoreBound » Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:13 pm

GAMEOVER wrote:...Some of your guys products interest me but im very picky as are many and if the exact reel I want dont come in a lefty im getting an alternative from say Daiwa that does...


Same here. I'm getting the impression that Shimano thinks the 'lefty' market is so insignificant that it's okay to ignore it. Whatever. Just less reels for me to drool over, tempting me to buy.

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby GAMEOVER » Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:35 pm

Even Russia/Italy and who knows what other countrys gets better Shimano products then us. http://www.shimanofireblood.com/
Shimano America has nothing compared to some of the other Shimano divisions. I think they need to hire some new people or perhaps make a new division within the company. America is supose to have the best fishing in the world but you wouldnt think it with some of the products we get.

Now my original intention of this post your reading now is because you mentioned how Shimano has Loomis now. Well you guys just baught GLoomis you didnt make GLoomis. Make something within Shimano America that can atleast compete with the Loomis GLX series, put it in a sleek sexy package, and put a smile on our faces like Daiwas Steez does. I (as well as many) will be impressed and they will be baught. We love our Loomis rods yeah, but we want more, a lot more!

Even our American pros are sponsord by these same companys and use these extreme enthusiast rods. Aaron Martens is sponsored by and uses Megabass, Ish Monroe is sponsored by Daiwa and is in love with his Steez rod as he told Tackle Tour in an interview he slept with it :lol: (look it up). These are just two.. Iaconelli was seen with a Megabass rod and he isnt even sponsored by them! Some pros are sponsored by Evergreen, yet another extreme enthusiast product! Other pros are very much in tune with the JDM market and some post here regularly. America is ready, when will Shimano be?

If we didnt care about Shimano we wouldnt be here wasteing our time typeing to you about it. Id love to hear you printed this whole topic and passed it around within the people you associate with at Shimano America. Would you be willing to do this?


I need something Shimano to blow away my Steez reel. Give us what we need! :evil22:

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Re: Shimano Quality difference between USA/Japan

Postby iangler » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:24 pm

Bantam1 wrote:Come down to So-Cal and I'll show you how well the US model reels perform. I bet my Calais 100A will smoke anything in your arsenal ;)


Really? :peace:

Should've brought my Antares AR.


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